New SNG tracking program (stats/features help)

[ChrisV]

I have tried out both PokerTracker and Aleo's spreadsheet for recording SNGs. I didn't really like either of them. The problems are:

Aleo's spreadsheet
------------------
- Manual recording is a pain
- Hand data isn't recorded at all
- Spreadsheet won't go beyond 750 tourneys

Pokertracker
------------
- Interface is horrible
- Requires you to request summary emails for all the tournaments - a pain.
- Missing a lot of functions - SD, confidences, cool graphs, ICM statistics etc. A lot of this results from PokerTracker's attempt to be all things to all people.

I'd like to write a new SNG-specific tracking program. I want it to do all stats about you - ITM, ROI, SD, confidences, hand stats, level stats, ICM stats, completely accurate $/hr stats - you name it. It will be able to do all this by parsing hand history files stored on your hard drive - no summary emails or anything required (for Party skins, anyway. Haven't looked at anything else).

What it WON'T do is track any data about your opponents, so it won't be a replacement for PokerTracker in that regard. I don't think most of PokerTracker's functions in that department are useful for SNGs anyway. VP$IP is a meaningless statistic for SNGs. Even VP$IP by level is meaningless as it changes so heavily depending on stack size.

Anyway, to the point of the post: I have a science degree and make a living writing code. What I don't have is any statistical knowledge. I can pick most of it up by examining Aleo's spreadsheet, but I need some help with the following:

- Given a sample of tournaments, how is Standard Deviation per tournament calculated?
- What do the Excel NORMSDIST and NORMSINV functions do? I need enough detail so that I can replicate the functions myself in code.

Full disclosure: I work for a software company and I will most likely release the product (if I ever finish it) under the auspices of the company. This will most likely include charging a fee for the product. Product royalties will not be paid for helping me out in this thread [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

EDIT: After posting, I was struck by the brilliant idea of looking in Excel help, so I have all the NORM functions sorted now.

The other thing I guess I want to know is: Does anyone have any good ideas for features that aren't included in PokerTracker but would be useful for SNGs? Remember that I won't be recording any data whatsoever about opponents' hands, actions or results.

[se2schul]

Why not open source the program, or release under a GPL type license? People can work with it, improve it, fix bugs, etc. It's a way of giving back to the poker community.

Steve

[ChrisV]

I already "give back" plenty to the poker community by posting here.

It's possible I'd release it as GPL but I'd rather get some revenue out of it as my boss would look favourably on that. The decision is not entirely mine as I will be using the resources of the company (Visual Studio .NET and SQL Server developer licenses, as well as probably some company time) to develop the product.

Why don't YOU write an open-source version?

[pokerlaw]

not familiar with programming so i am not sure how tedious this would be, but would you be able to breakdown my net overall results for each hand that I play. ex: show how many chips i am up/down in sit and go's when I am dealt AA. this would be interesting to see i feel.

[citanul]

Chris,

As I've already noted my eternal love to you in other posts, it's clearly not necessary here. I'd love to help out with a tool of this sort, and have been thinking about developing something of the same sort, possibly restricted to SNG usefulness, possibly not, with a friend, for quite some time now. I have a good-ish set of features I think (though I can't be sure that I think that I have that set right now, since I'm pretty liquored up), and a lot of improvements on pokertracker that I'd like to see made, already in sort of in my brain list mode. If you get a chance, drop me a PM, and I'll shoot you a PM with my email address included, so that I can help out as much as I can with this project.

I don't really care of something costs money or not. I guess that that's my disclosure. My other disclosure is that I'm willing to make sacrifices to work on interesting projects with brilliant people. So now that we've gotten that off our chests, let's make a good program!

As a first question, I'd like to ask why it is exactly that you don't want to have any tracking of your opponents' cards and actions? Is it purely a complexity and database size issue?

Alright, I'm gonna go and collapse in a pile of semidrunkenness. I'll talk to y'all later.

citanul

[ChrisV]

This will definitely be included. PokerTracker already does this but it is rather clumsy. It'll calculate both chip +/- and ICM equity +/-, and will be able to be filtered by hand, level, and probably a bunch of other stuff - whether you called or raised, position (early/mid/late) etc.

[ChrisV]

There are a few problems with tracking opponents.

The first is that to do so requires the user to request a summary email for every tourney they play, otherwise you can't tell what happened after you busted out. I think that's a pain.

The other thing is that as you said it introduces a whole stack of extra complexity into the program. The biggest complexity comes in the user interface. PokerTracker has not solved these problems, the user interface is a useless mess. Things like exporting to notes, GameTime+ etc is the saving grace of PokerTracker as otherwise all the data would be useless.

Thirdly I just don't think most of the statistics that can be gathered are very useful. For example, if you play a few tourneys with me and I happen to have a stack of 2400 odd on the bubble each time, with a short stack around, you are going to erroneously believe that I am always tight/passive on the bubble. Believing that will not be good for you if next time I'm the one with the short stack. On the other hand if you've played 3 tourneys with me and I'm the short stack every time, you'll think pushing with 73 suited from the SB is my usual strategy. And you'll be largely correct, but let's not go there.

Fourthly, most players (especially the ones that matter - the idiots) you will just never collect enough data on to learn anything useful about.

Fifthly, the data is pretty unreliable. Peoples play improves over time, the data you have on them may be while they were drunk, there might be multiple people playing on the account, etc.

Finally, PokerProphecy, if it takes off, will be a far more comprehensive reference for other players. No hand history parsing software can hope to match that.

In short: too much effort for something that is going to end up a complex mess with very little actual benefit. The important functions to accomplish are (1) tracking profit, loss, ROI, all that stuff, and (2) letting the user know about general strategic errors they are making. (For example: what is their strategy of limping most hands on Level 1 actually doing to their ICM equity, on average?)

[Michael C.]

Chris- You give back tons, and I just wanted to thank you personally. I just had the best poker weekend of my life, including winning my first STEP 5. While no doubt the cards were running good, I've been playing a lot better lately due to advice from this forum, and I've gotten more from you than anyone else. So thanks for all your advice, and count me in as a buyer for whatever you put out.

[Dylan Wade]

I'll write one and you can make it open source. 1000$ through netteller. i'm serious.

[ChrisV]

Thanks!

Hopefully I will actually finish this hare-brained scheme [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]