Standard flop and turn play?

Clarkmeister · #1 09-05-2002, 04:02 AM

6-12. 4 limpers and the SB to me in the BB with Qh5s. I decide against an Ottosenesque raise and check.

Flop: [3h 4s 6d] Checked to the button who bets, I call all others fold. Headsup to the turn.

Turn: Qs. I checkraise and he folds.

Billy LTL · #2 09-05-2002, 05:00 AM

Though you got at least one, probably two, extra big bets by playing the way you did (well done) I prefer betting out on the flop in such a case. I think you risk getting it checked around and watching somebody pair up on the turn when you possibly could win three big bets right there.

Also, instead of check-calling did you consider check-raising on the flop?

Consider this scenario: The flop is checked around, the turn produces a king, you check and UTG bets. Folded to you. Now what?

Your opponent's bet is telling you've got drawing odds of 3.75-1 (foolish to count queens as outs here) and pot odds of 4-1. Just makes it but a little close for comfort though you would certainly get paid off, maybe with two bets, on the river if you hit.

Okay, okay. I've talked myself into it and like your play now.

Best of luck, Billy (LTL)

Dynasty · #3 09-05-2002, 05:45 AM

I wouldn't say the flop play is standards since I'll bet that flop quite a bit.

Clarkmeister · #4 09-05-2002, 11:48 AM

"What if the turn produces a King?"

I think that's my point. I should consider checkraising the turn with almost any card. Sort of a delayed "I think you are stealing in LP cause everyone checked" checkraise, only on the turn and not on the flop.

Also, should I consider calling in order to possibly induce a bluff on the river now that I have showdown value? It is still fairly unlikely in my mind that he has any hand whatsoever?

Clarkmeister · #5 09-05-2002, 11:51 AM

I'll bet the flop about 30% of the time. My problem with betting it is that since most people love to lead at flops with draws rather than made hands, they also tend to put you on a draw. Checking allows me some flexibility in terms of what I represent.

ripdog · #6 09-05-2002, 12:36 PM

I tend to lead at flops with draws and made hands. Does that fact make it any tougher for my opponents? It seems to me that you would read me like an open book in that respect, and probably many others. When I play, it's in a very weak $3-$6 full kill game. I doubt that my opponents are putting me on anything, they're just playing their cards. Will my betting draws as well as made hands be enough against thinking players? What adjustments should I make when I come up against someone who actually wonders what I might be betting with?

Clarkmeister · #7 09-05-2002, 12:48 PM

The "bet everything" strategy is a cornerstone of my game. So, yes, I think it will work. Lately I've simply tended to lead a little bit less with draws. I do still lead with many draws, just not 90% anymore.

On this hand though, a 1 card non-nut straight draw with only 1 overcard seemed a good spot to check and improvise. Now if the flop had been 467 and I had 89, I would have led.

Ulysses · #8 09-05-2002, 02:29 PM

"What adjustments should I make when I come up against someone who actually wonders what I might be betting with?"

Checkraise your draws sometimes. Holdings like open-ended straight with an overcard on a non-flush board are a nice time for that.

ripdog · #9 09-06-2002, 01:11 PM

Definitely helpful responses from both of you. In my limited time at the tables, I don't CR enough. I also pound away on the flop too much, often making it correct for opponents to run me down. I am happy to see that my instinct play of pushing draws and made hands will transfer when I make the jump to higher limits. So much to work on, so little time to play!