Noob hand question

DRD66 · #1 02-18-2005, 04:07 AM

I'm new to tourneys, maybe this should be on beginners forum. What do y'all think of this hand?
UB free SNG, hand 15
Table is loose pf, then tightens. Read on villian is no read - shown few hands, good player, assume capable of bullying/stealing

Ultimate Bet No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (5 handed) converter

SB (t2230)
Hero (t2960)
UTG (t1075)
Villian (t3095)
Button (t640)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Villian calls t20, 1 fold, SB completes, Hero raises to t40, Villian calls t20, SB calls t20.
(small raise, trying to keep 'em in)
Flop: (t120) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t20, Villian calls t20, SB folds.
(again, small bet to keep 'em in. Got sucked out on a few hands ago and am admittedly gun-shy at this point)
Turn: (t160) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t50, Villian raises to t310,
(wtf? has he got 57?!? almost sure he would raised jj before now. maybe tryin to steal? arrrrrgh)
Hero calls t260.
River: (t780) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
(ok, he cant have a j not w/ that turn bet)
Hero bets t780, Villian calls t780.
(now i have no idea. strt? HELP!)
Final Pot: t2340

Should I have checked the river? Pretty sure I got the best hand. Anything I can think of that beats me should not have made it this far. Even if I think he does have it, do I bet for value and write off a bad beat as poor play on his part and figure to beat him if he keeps it up? Am I overthinking this?
Be gentle, I'm new here ;-)

Benholio · #2 02-18-2005, 04:32 AM

Welcome to the forum.

Pre-flop
First off, you hardly ever want to minimum raise or minimum bet. Pre-flop, make it at least 3-4 times the big blind, and maybe more if you have limpers or think you will get called for more. Don't ever worry about trying to 'keep them in' pre-flop. Here is an example to illustrate why:

Say players A, B, and C all limp in for 20, and you raise to 40. You are almost definately going to have 160 chips in the pot and 3 opponents.

A,B,C limp for 20, you raise to 80. Now, you will have one of the following:

You win 60 chips (rarely).
You go to the flop with 200 in the pot and 1 opponent.
You go to the flop with 260 in the pot and 2 opponents.
You go to the flop with 320 in the pot and 3 opponents.
You get raised, and get all-in against 1,2 or 3 opponents.

All of these scenarios except the first one are MUCH better than the min-raise. You want a combination of a) the most chips in the pot and b) the fewest opponents. Min-raising gives you the worst of both worlds.

The Flop
Once again a minimum bet is virtually never a good move. By betting 20 chips, you are giving your opponent 7-1 pot odds, making it cheap for him to try and catch up. You should pretty much never open up on the flop for less than 1/2 the pot, and most often you should bet 2/3-pot to slightly over the pot. This flop has 2 diamonds, and some funky straight draws possible. You want to bet the full size of the pot, at least, so that anyone trying to draw to these hands has to pay for it.

The Turn
Once again your opening bet is too small. Usually when someone calls the flop then raises the turn, it means a good hand. However, he could just be raising because your small bets represent weakness. Small leading bets like that will induce players to bluff sometimes. If you bet the pot on the flop, then fired on the turn again and got raised, I would definately be worried. As it stands, I'm not really sure what to think of his hand.

The River
Betting on the river is completely different than the flop or turn. There are two reasons to bet on the river. 1) To get worse hands to give you more chips. 2) To get better hands to fold. In low buy-in games, you pretty much only want to bet for reason #1. By betting so much on the river, you make it hard for any hand below yours to call you. Most hands that are going to call this bet are ones that are beating you. I would check on the river, and then really be kind of lost when he bets. This river would be a lot easier to play with larger bets on the flop and turn giving us a better idea of what he has.

curtains · #3 02-18-2005, 04:34 AM

First its VERY important to learn that you shouldnt raise small preflop early in tournaments just because you have AA or KK.

Jason Strasser · #4 02-18-2005, 04:46 AM

Read a book.

ilya · #5 02-18-2005, 04:53 AM

Hi DRD. Welcome to the forum.

You say that the table is loose preflop. If that's so, you should worry less about keeping your opponents in and more about cutting the field down to 1 or at most 2 opponents. Make a hefty raise to about 100-120; you'll still get called by plenty of inferior hands, but you can be more confident of being ahead if you flop an overpair.

On the flop, you should make a larger bet, about the size of the pot. There aren't many possible draws, but your bet is so small that your opponent can call profitably with a hand as weak as bottom pair. You want to give your opponents a chance to make a mistake by calling you, and your bet is not large enough for that. Another problem with making such a small bet is that you learn almost nothing about your opponent's hand when he calls you.

That problem becomes apparent when you get raised on the turn. Because your bets so far have been so easy to call, it's basically impossible to tell whether your opponent has a straight/two-pair/set, or some weaker hand, like a straight draw or one pair or an underpair like 99. Matter of fact, since you haven't shown a lot of strength, he might well just be bluff-raising. I don't think just folding there is terrible. While you're probably giving up some chips on average by folding, you're avoiding a potentially difficult decision on the river against the big stack, and your chip position is quite good anyway. You can also call as you did. If you call, I'm not sure what you should do on the river. Perhaps a better post-flop player could chime in here.

So, to recap:
Play this hand much more agressively preflop and on the flop - to extract value, to get your opponents to make mistakes, and to make your decisions on later steets easier.

pokerlaw · #6 02-18-2005, 04:58 AM

Definetly read a book - super/system or Cloutier McEvoy Tournament NL/PL are my top two.

YOU CANNOT PLAY KK OR AA LIKE THAT IN NL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! on lowerstakes tables especially, a miniraise like that is often a red flag for AA or KK, but it is also a green light to draw off of it, since the owners frequently call all ins after say, a 67 st8 hits w a 548 flop, so it is a very profitable play (to call your crap raise i mean).

curtains · #7 02-18-2005, 05:04 AM

Original poster - youve got a lot of work to do. Realize that you know next to nothing about proper poker strategy. Ignore most of strategy advice you hear on TV, read what some of the more experienced people say on this forums.
You have to be careful because a lot of the opinions given here are very bad ones (I'm sure even mine are sometimes, but I'll never admit it), however if you listen to the right people you can make great strides in your game. So ask around before you listen to just anyone's advice, and you can see some serious improvement.

DRD66 · #8 02-18-2005, 12:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Say players A, B, and C all limp in for 20, and you raise to 40. You are almost definately going to have 160 chips in the pot and 3 opponents.

A,B,C limp for 20, you raise to 80. Now, you will have one of the following:

You win 60 chips (rarely).
You go to the flop with 200 in the pot and 1 opponent.
You go to the flop with 260 in the pot and 2 opponents.
You go to the flop with 320 in the pot and 3 opponents.
You get raised, and get all-in against 1,2 or 3 opponents.

All of these scenarios except the first one are MUCH better than the min-raise. You want a combination of a) the most chips in the pot and b) the fewest opponents. Min-raising gives you the worst of both worlds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Crap, I feel like an idiot.
Remember reading this concept in TOP, now it makes sense. Read straight through TOP and helped a lot. Now going to go through chapter by chapter and try to apply each before moving to the next. Maybe I should read SSHE before I do this?

Lots of good info in your post (esp. for 3:30a!), thanks very much!

wiggs73 · #9 02-18-2005, 01:03 PM

Nothing new to add to what people have said. Just some general advice for the original poster. First, don't get discouraged because people say you played the hand poorly, just soak up the knowledge and be happy that you'll play it better next time.

Reading and posting on these forums will help your game more than you know. Also, try to pick up a book or 2. Harrington on Hold 'Em is a very good read even though its geared more towards multi-table tourneys. Also, you can't go wrong with Super System (1 or 2) or anything from 2+2 publishing.

Keep posting hands and asking questions, you'll start seeing improvement in no time.

Benholio · #10 02-18-2005, 01:25 PM

No need to feel like an idiot. You are already ahead of 95% of your opposition by actively trying to improve your game.

As far as reading books, you will gain some good general poker theory by reading the 2plus2 books, but not a lot of SnG specific strategy. SSHE, for example, will be pretty useless for SnG, or any kind of no-limit.

A good place to start would be Aleo Magus' guide to beating the $10+1, which is your basic sit-n-go starting kit developed by one of our frequent posters here.