Is there anything I could have done to avoid this?

Karak567 · #1 02-16-2005, 07:44 PM

I knew the second I called that this is what had happened, but I couldn't back away from a hand like this. Crap like this has been happening to me all week. Should I have folded with the inkling that he had just made his boat?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) converter

MP1 (t1810)
MP2 (t1470)
Hero (t1470)
CO (t2050)
Button (t940)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1300)
UTG+1 (t1480)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls t20, 3 folds, Hero calls t20, CO calls t20, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, CO bets t20, BB calls t20, UTG folds, Hero raises to t40, CO calls t20, BB calls t20.

Turn: (t210) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t120, CO folds, BB calls t120.

River: (t450) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets t1320 (All-In), Hero calls t1290 (All-In).

Final Pot: t3060

Results in white below: 
BB has Js Kd (full house, jacks full of kings).
Hero has 4s 4d (full house, fours full of jacks).
Outcome: BB wins t3060.

TruFloridaGator · #2 02-16-2005, 07:55 PM

With the A & K on the turn & river, that gives other possibilities of larger full houses than yours if he had AJ or KJ. Although, what I think you should have done is made a larger raise on the flop, then if he comes back over the top, then you obviously have no choice but to call. It's unfortunate that he already had you beat to start, but you have to get a gauge on what he had with a larger raise. Even if he only has the Jack on the flop, he has a chance to draw a larger full house. Tough one man.

mcpherzen · #3 02-16-2005, 09:16 PM

You could have mucked 44 pre-flop.

Don't get me wrong...what happened to you in this hand was a pretty big bummer (notice that it WASN'T a bad beat because 44 and KJ are about 50/50 pre-flop and all the money went in AFTER you were drawing almost completely dead). The point here is that small pairs turning into small sets on the flop are super vulnerable. A common strategy misconception is that you should see cheap flops if you can with all pairs because you can make a lot of money if you flop a set. No one ever talks, however, about the small flopped set being no good (and virtually impossible to get away from) and/or not being able to get your small set fully paid to justify having played the small pair in the first place. You'll run into this a lot less if you muck all 22-77 in the early levels of an SNG.

--Zen

curtains · #4 02-16-2005, 09:20 PM

You were correct to call preflop. You should have raised more on the flop.
This is the kind of flop where you are either going to get a ton of action now, or only get action if someone catches a lucky turn card to beat you.
If someone has a jack you are probably going to make a ton from them, but you dont want to let some bozo in with 66 who will win all your chips if a 6 falls.
It's bad advice to fold these hands in online sit and gos out of fear of losing to a higher set.

curtains · #5 02-16-2005, 09:23 PM

Sorry, you do want to keep the flush draws in. Yet still I think raising to 40 is just weak poker. I'd make a normal raise to about 100-200 range.

mcpherzen · #6 02-17-2005, 12:13 AM

Although you can make the argument that he should have raised more on the flop, it wouldn't have changed the ultimate outcome of this hand one iota. Trip Jacks with a King isn't going anywhere for all the tea in China, and then he fills on the turn, so he certainly isn't folding then either. The ONLY way our hero doesn't go broke here is to not get involved in the first place.

My point is simply that a small set, which is about the best thing you're going to make when you start with 22, 33, 44, 55, etc. is much more vulnerable than generally is written about.

--Zen

Karak567 · #7 02-17-2005, 12:21 AM

Good points about the small sets being vulnerable. I have, however, also made a lot of chips by hitting them, as no one expects them.

Just the other day, though, I had the same thing happen when my set of 7s ran into a set of As on a full house.

AtticusFinch · #8 02-17-2005, 02:40 AM

The short answer? No. We can argue all day about whether you should have raised more on the flop, etc. etc., but in the end, there's no way he's laying his hand down, and there's no way you're laying down yours if either of you has any sense. Sometimes you're just destined to get busted. That's why I like SNGs. It's just one buyin.

Sure, small sets can be beaten. Any hand but a royal can be beaten. But your equity is gigantic in this hand, as it is any time you flop a set unless the flop is monochrome or 3 to a straight flush, and your equity is still pretty high then, especially heads-up.

I've been nailed by higher boats before. It sucks. Badly. But don't kick yourself over getting all your money in the middle with a boat. The VAST majority of the time when this happens you double up.

holeplug · #9 02-17-2005, 02:47 AM

Sometimes you'll just make the 2nd best hand. It happens to all of us.

The Yugoslavian · #10 02-17-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good points about the small sets being vulnerable. I have, however, also made a lot of chips by hitting them, as no one expects them.

Just the other day, though, I had the same thing happen when my set of 7s ran into a set of As on a full house.

[/ QUOTE ]

If this isn't happening to you then you're probably folding your sets too often.

Aside from Zen's folding this preflop option (which is more valid than curtain realizes) it's just a glorified bad beat post.

Yugoslav