way ahead/way behind?

donger · #1 02-07-2005, 06:11 PM

PF Raiser is 20%/13%.. only seen about 15 hands at this table, so no real reads. I have recently become familiar with the concept of way ahead/way behind situations, and wondered if you guys thought this was one of them. It seems like it to me, but I couldn't help check-raising the turn here. I guess I'm used to 2/4 where I'll get paid off to the river with an underpair...

Should I have just check-called all the way here?
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed)converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 3 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, MP1 checks, Button bets, Hero calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (4.16 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero raises, Button folds.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

zram21 · #2 02-07-2005, 06:15 PM

Lead out on the flop.

By thinking of this in a way ahead/way behind mentality I am guessing you were going to just call down unimproved? That would be a bad way to play this hand.

The range of hands that the button might be raising against one limper is very big. You aren't winning the most possible if you are ahead by check/calling because he might check something like TT through on the turn, but may call a bet.

Schizo · #3 02-07-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lead out on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Derek in NYC · #4 02-07-2005, 06:20 PM

I often checkraise flops like this, rather than check-calling, then lead the turn.

The turn raise, as you point out, does nothing unless the guy is complete retard, since you hold the nuts (absent quads and a chop). I probably don't check call, however, heads up. I would just bet this turn, and give the guy the chance to 3-bet you on a bluff.

Whatever you do, dont check-raise the river. Just bet it.

runa · #5 02-07-2005, 06:21 PM

You're only behind AA and AK so its probably more likely you're ahead than behind. Flop smooth call is ok to set up the turn CR on a drawless/rainbow board, especially if you think this player will autobet the flop and turn even with A high when checked to.

zram21 · #6 02-07-2005, 06:27 PM

I am not a fan of smooth calling the flop to check raise the turn here. If you are going to check raise then it should be on the flop. Why give a hand like AQ a chance to check the turn through and catch an A for free on the river?

If you are VERY certain button will bet the turn again I guess it is ok, but with the range of hands he might be raising with preflop and then auto betting on the flop I think check raising the flop is far superior. I still like leading the flop the best though. I don't want the flop getting checked through either.

poboys · #7 02-07-2005, 06:35 PM

I would have gone for the check-raise on the flop. 99% of the time the raiser is going to bet this flop (and hopefully get him out of the way). Make MP call two cold. Lead out the turn.

I am not a big fan of check raising the turn with so few people in the pot. As others mention.. you don't want to give away a free card.

Derek in NYC · #8 02-07-2005, 06:36 PM

he is not behind AK. he chops with AK as long as an ace doesnt fall.

zram21 · #9 02-07-2005, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
he is not behind AK. he chops with AK as long as an ace doesnt fall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am pretty certain he was referring to the flop with this comment.

runa · #10 02-07-2005, 06:41 PM

His initial description sounds fairly aggro, and if he does have AQ he's drawing thin to 3 outs, and your CR on the flop makes it an easy fold on the turn. It sounded to me like our hero trusted his read enough to believe the villain would bet the flop and turn, and a CR on the turn might smell suspicious and get called down by A high. If not, he folds on the turn and you get an extra SB out of him or calls and folds the river UI and you net another additional BB.

Personally I lead the flop more often than trying to set up a CR on the turn, and I agree that leading out in these situations usually works out better. If I led and were raised on the flop then I usually 3-bet and go from there.