OESD on flop

Evan · #1 01-31-2005, 10:14 AM

I play limit cash games so PLHE sng's are about the furthest thing from my expertise. Was this good, bad or ugly? Chris Daddy Cool and I had differing opinions.

MP1 was Chris Daddy Cool

Party Poker Pot-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed) converter

CO (t1486)
Button (t855)
SB (t1109)
Hero (t1245)
UTG (t1270)
UTG+1 (t195)
MP1 (t935)
MP2 (t905)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls t30, UTG+1 calls t30, MP1 raises to t80, MP2 calls t80, 2 folds, SB calls t65, Hero calls t50, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t50.

Flop: (t430) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB bets t200, Hero calls t200, UTG+1 calls all-in t115, MP1 raises all-in to t885, MP2 folds, SB calls t655, Hero raises all

OrcaDK · #2 01-31-2005, 10:18 AM

I'd fold preflop, KQ vs. a raise and a couple of limpers, and in a terrible position = trouble.

realbad101 · #3 01-31-2005, 11:45 AM

I probably call here pre-flop in the BB as you did, although I tend to be a litte looser pre-flop than is standard.

I think after Chris Daddy Cool raises all in and there is a caller, you have to fold this flop, even with the 200 invested and the favorable pot odds. At this level of the tournament, reducing variance and staying alive is more important than staying with draw. If you fold, you'll still have plenty of chances to get your money in when you are the 2-1 favorite, like CDC or the other caller most likely is over you in this situation.

RobGW · #4 01-31-2005, 12:25 PM

You should have folded on the flop. You are only getting 3:1 pot odds not to mention there are 4 people left to act and a potential flush draw. If you are not disciplined enough to let this go then you should just fold preflop.

willie · #5 01-31-2005, 01:08 PM

i'd fold preflop, but you called so from there....check it over.

first to act is showing strength and you have a lot of people behind you to act, so you have to fold to the initial bet on the flop to avoid getting knee deep in this hand.

you have to figure that some of your outs are dead (flush draw), and i feel that the person who pushed behind you is attempting to protect a set. This means you have to hit your draw then dodge the board pairing- it's just a terrible situation to be in.

in conclusion toss this preflop cause these decisions suck. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

schwza · #6 01-31-2005, 01:55 PM

making these calls pre-flop in a PL/NL game is a surefire way to go broke.

bakku · #7 02-01-2005, 03:35 AM

C'mon Evan. I can't remember the last time I saw someone of your caliber make 3 bad calls before the turn card even hit.

Daliman · #8 02-01-2005, 03:44 AM

Well, not only do you have the OESD, but also 2 overcards and a runner runner flush draw. Yer overcards may or may not be live, but none of the plays you made on this hand are horrendous by any stretch of the imagination, ESPECIALLY for a $20 SNG. I'd like the people saying how bad this was to explain why it's terrible.

Chris Daddy Cool · #9 02-01-2005, 04:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, not only do you have the OESD, but also 2 overcards and a runner runner flush draw. Yer overcards may or may not be live, but none of the plays you made on this hand are horrendous by any stretch of the imagination, ESPECIALLY for a $20 SNG. I'd like the people saying how bad this was to explain why it's terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

given the early stage of the tourney and his stack size and his *skill* why risk such a large portion or *whole* stack in this spot? especially with this action on the flop. what does he expect to be up against most of the time?

his overcard outs simply do not exist when i push on the flop. there's a really really good chance he's up against a set and a flush draw, which flushes his equity down the drain.

or a flush draw and an overpair, say, AA. that's even worse for his hand cuz 2 of his straight draws are out.

preflop call is bad.
initial flop call is marginal, but probably bad.
calling the push getting about 4-1 is bad considering doubling or tripling up at this stage isn't as important as actually surviving first. not to mention that his straight pot odds aren't even that great. his equity is thin at best.

just curious daliman, what would you have done? you mentioned his play is "not horrendous" but does that mean you think its good?

Daliman · #10 02-01-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well, not only do you have the OESD, but also 2 overcards and a runner runner flush draw. Yer overcards may or may not be live, but none of the plays you made on this hand are horrendous by any stretch of the imagination, ESPECIALLY for a $20 SNG. I'd like the people saying how bad this was to explain why it's terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

given the early stage of the tourney and his stack size and his *skill* why risk such a large portion or *whole* stack in this spot? especially with this action on the flop. what does he expect to be up against most of the time?

his overcard outs simply do not exist when i push on the flop. there's a really really good chance he's up against a set and a flush draw, which flushes his equity down the drain.

or a flush draw and an overpair, say, AA. that's even worse for his hand cuz 2 of his straight draws are out.

preflop call is bad.
initial flop call is marginal, but probably bad.
calling the push getting about 4-1 is bad considering doubling or tripling up at this stage isn't as important as actually surviving first. not to mention that his straight pot odds aren't even that great. his equity is thin at best.

just curious daliman, what would you have done? you mentioned his play is "not horrendous" but does that mean you think its good?

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand all you said, but as I said; while loose, and probably too aggressive, it's not horrible. I have no idea his skill level, nor yours. However. If you are only pushing AA, flush draw, or a set here, you are playing too tight. Not by much, mind you, but I also see even at the $200 level people going allin with an underpair here. getting 4-1 on an allin straight draw with runner runner outs and possible overcard draws, again, is not horrible, but if he fells he is a strong player, he should lay this hand down at any of 3 different points in the hand. Otherwise, there is too much bad play out there to simply out of hand say QKo should be folded to even a minimal raise with 5 people in the pot. I wasn;t saying it's a GOOD play, mind you, but so many in the thread were saying it's horrendous. This is not the WSOP, it's a single table tourney. If he loses the hand, oh well, sucks, but he could have just as easily lost in a BETTER situation. If he wins, however, he will quadruple or so up. This specific play, long term, is likely a loser, but not by much, and to say it's terrible is simply shortsighted.

All that said, I fold PF. QK is a trap hand early.