Playing Premium Hands????

[Buccaneer]

Here is a thought of mine. One that I am having reinforced every time I play on internet. Please do not take this as a rant, it is an observation.

I have been playing 2+2 now for several weeks. I have been playing the premium hands, betting and raising to increase the pot, checking to gain information rather than try to sneak in to the next round, and attempting to reduce the number of players that go to the show down.

Doing the math if you wait for AA, KK, AK and the rest and it takes about 2 minutes to play a game you are going to be lucky to play >2 hands an hour.

If you wait for AK and then bet it then you have about 8 players stay in for the flop which is usually blanks for you but there is always one of the 8 who fills two holes in a straight to take the hand. You have two options, decide to fold or play, it does not matter because you never see another A or K and if you were to see a A or K then some clown will be holding a 2 and make a set. Happens every time because they were too stupid to fold with a 2x. It may not be the same clown every time but there is no way that they are going to fold if there are cards to be dealt. So someone gets lucky and it is never you because you are only playing in 2 hands an hour.

I am going back and reread my books and read my notes. But maybe I do not see the big picture. Maybe I am not doing the math. I really am playing less profitabily then before 2+2 ever showed up under my Christmas tree. Well make that a bigger looser. Yes I have had some wonderful results using 2+2. I have felt in control of several games but I have also felt like I was cast into the sea and did not know how to swim.

I am playing strong hands, I bet to increase the pot and try to get other players to fold, I try to pay attention to position, I check the BB and fold if it is not a playable hand if it is raised. I make mistakes but I work on thoses. Lost a pot tonight knowing I had made the highest possible hand but forgot to consider my kicker. That will not happen again, well it might but I am going to try to learn that lesson.

Am I forgetting key concepts? What do you think is causing these results. Does 2+2 require perfect play to be effective? Should I play 49o for a while to see if I really am doing worse????????

[the_joker]

Why are you only playing 2 hands per hour??? Pre-flop strategy from just about any book will have you playing around 20-25% of your hands, which around 12-15 hands per hour online.

[Niediam]

You should play (and most definatly raise) with AK even if you knew every single person would stay in preflop because it will definatly win more than 10% of the time.

[Bluffoon]

Poker is complicated. Keep studying and posting and reading posts here. Play at the smallest limits you can find until you feel confident and comfortable that you are executing proper strategy. Pokerstars has .05/.10 games. You can play these games and not have to worry too much about your losses while you learn.

As you gain experience the things you are reading should start to make more sense and you should begin to see more success at the tables.

Good Luck.

[Mike]

You are correct about those premium hands. Just like a battle poker is won in the field not from the command post. You do not have to have premium hands to play, just better hands at the river than your opposition.

If they are showing down two pair with 53o, many starting hands are better than that. If they are showing you two pair with KQs you are out classed and out gunned.

If seven players are going to the river, your betting and raising may need some scrubbing. Possibly you are just in games that you do not do well in, maybe you need a different game texture.

Perhaps it is the books themselves? There is a big difference in the pedantry of the various 2+2 books. They do not always work well when mixed thoroughly and applied to a single game at the same time unless you know why you are mixing them.

[Buccaneer]

Thank you for the comments. I may indeed be playing to tight. I shall look into that.

The comment about the texture of the game seems to apply to me also. I find that sometimes that just changing tables makes all the difference in the world. I have been doing well at a table and someone sits down and I can no longer do well. They don't win but they change the game so that I am no longer winning. Is this common, do you experience this? I guess the great ones can adjust or even change the texture of the table to suit them.

[jtr]

By my standards you're tight -- I'd guess there are more hands you could play from LP.

[ QUOTE ]
The comment about the texture of the game seems to apply to me also. I find that sometimes that just changing tables makes all the difference in the world. I have been doing well at a table and someone sits down and I can no longer do well. They don't win but they change the game so that I am no longer winning.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was more interested in this comment, however. First let me say I understand what you're getting at and have had similar feelings before. But we're talking about online play, right?

How many hands do you play before you draw the conclusion that the current lineup of opponents is frustrating your game? I mean obviously you'd leave a table if everyone played very tightly, or preflop aggression went through the roof and it wasn't loose aggression. But you seem to be suggesting something more subtle, some way in which the dynamic of the other guy's play is interacting with yours.

I agree that this can happen in principle, but I guess I'd caution you that you're not mistaking a bad run of cards for the effects of the other players' styles. Seems to me that if your pocket pairs were hitting sets at greater than the expected rate, etc., you'd be perfectly happy to be at pretty much any table, no matter how quirky and frustrating the lineup of opponents.

Just a thought.

[grandgnu]

Alright, here's my advice:

1. I do not play limit Hold 'Em. I will play No Limit Hold 'Em (tourneys or cash games) and 7-stud, stud hi/lo and omaha hi/lo (limit and pot limit)

2. Only playing premium hands is not a good idea. You MUST consider position, the other players styles, the # of players at the table, etc. There are a variety of factors which will effect which hands you should play, and when. If you only play A/A, K/K and A/K, how often will you get these premium hands, how often will the flop actually help you, and how often will people play against you if they know what you're holding is? Sometimes it pays to be "caught" playing a less than premium holding.

3. Which hands do you believe you'll get paid off more frequently on? The hands that tend to bring you the biggest payouts are the unexpected hands. If you have A/K and the flop has high cards that give you a strong holding, how likely are people who don't have anything to stick around and pay you off?

Now let's say you have 7/8 suited, or 9/J, or something. Depending on how many players see the flop, and what position you're in, these hands can be playable and profitable. If you're in a later position, you can call with less chances of being raised out of the pot. If there are 5+ players in the pot, you may be getting the appropriate odds to see the flop and catch a good hand. If the flop is 8/10/Q and you're holding the J/9, well, someone who's caught top pair is going to probably bet into you, and not put you on having the straight.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating calling with 6/2 suited, or K/3, etc. These are real junk hands, the other hands mentioned have some potential for a nice straight draw, etc.

I was in a tourney at my house, and chip leader, and it was raised pre-flop by a pretty tight player. Everyone folded, and I called with 10/J suited (even thought I knew whatever his holding was had me beat). The flop was J/J/10 and he was betting into me, it was wonderful. Granted, sometimes you've just gotta get lucky, but if your position is right, and there is enough money in the pot, then calling with less than premium hands can be profitable, as long as you play well post-flop.

[Buccaneer]

Thank you for your comments. It may well be that I am seeing the sitting of a player as the "cause" of a change in my luck. I shall keep this in mind. You are also quite right that I would be more than happy when any hand of mine hits better than expected.

[Buccaneer]

I must agree that I need to loosen up a bit as well as use position more efficiently. I have looked over notes of mine and I suspect that I have over corrected a bit on my part. I think I was not seeing playable hands as playable and possibly scaring away betters when I had premium hands. Thanks for your comments.