Miller's February article

[Niediam]

Should a hand such as Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the big blind should also call one bet in a raised pot? Or does the poor position reduce the hand's strength enough to make it a fold?

[Zeno]

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Should a hand such as Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the big blind should also call one bet in a raised pot?

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The answer is no. See p 80-83 and related text in SSH.

.

[Eratosthenes]

His advice on pp 80-83 is to call a raise in the BB with the same hands you would call one bet on the button, excluding some of the smaller unsuited connectors, like JT.

When you are an LP poster, you can loosen up from what you would play in the BB because you will have position on the raiser (unless button raised, where you have the advantage of closing the betting) and most or all of the remaining field. I don't play suited Queens in this spot (I play suited Kings.), but I can see how it would be profitable for the really good postflop players. Many SSH players will complete the SB with any two suited cards into a multiway pot. Comparing an LP poster to a SB completer--the poster has position for the rest of the hand, but poorer implied odds, so calling the raise with suited Queens is not inconsistent.

I think beginners would do well to avoid this play. Hands like Q3 suited are very good at making the second best hand, so can be very expensive if not played well. The Q3s example is in a multiway pot, I don't think he would play that in a heads up or 3-way pot.

[37offsuit]

It would depend on how many callers there were and the position of the raiser. Say it gets folded to MP who raises and then gets three callers. Calling one bet here to see the flop against 4 opponents when you complete the action is the right play, in my opinion, so long as you play well after the flop. I wouldn't take the hand far unless I flopped trip 3's, a good flush draw with an over card out, etc.

If the small blind is out of the hand, I'll sometimes check in the dark to the raiser which kind of gives you back position for the first betting round. Uusally I'm going to check/raise any hand I make on the flop anyway, and then shut down if I get callers unless I improve or have flopped a monster.

[Zeno]

Thanks for pointing this out and for the clarification. Miller's tables are presented in a somewhat convoluted form and old men like myself get confused easily.

I have my doubts that a Q, 3 suited can be played for long-term profit from the BB for a raise. Now that will depend, of course, on a multitude of factors (something you commented on etc.), not the least being where the raise originates and the number of fools in the hand and so forth. So judgment is called for and if your judgment is exercised in a wise manner and your post flop play is above par, then Mr. Miller is correct (and I’m sure he makes those stipulations somewhere in his <font color="red"> Big Red Book </font>). So the old conundrum of sound judgment looms and vibrates like a mirage on the poker-playing horizon. A not unusual situation.

By the way, as a comment to all, I enjoyed Edward’s article. He is a wise man and writes well.

Le Misanthrope

[The Dude]

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I have my doubts that a Q, 3 suited can be played for long-term profit from the BB for a raise.

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While I usually fold this hand for a raise, it is not at all uncommon for me to call a raise from the BB with "any two suited." Q3s is definately better than "any two suited."

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
Should a hand such as Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the big blind should also call one bet in a raised pot? Or does the poor position reduce the hand's strength enough to make it a fold?

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Well, who raised? UTG? The button? Or in between?

What kind of player is the raiser? Tight? Maniacal? Average?

How many people have called the raise?

How many limpers still face the raise, and have the option to reraise?

In the right situation, Q3s is a call. In the wrong situation, it is a fold.

For example, if a tight UTG player raised, and it was folded to me in the BB, and I had Q3s, I would fold. I would be isolated out of position with a poor hand against what rates to be an excellent hand.

The opposite extreme: A maniac open raises, and 4 people call (including the SB). I get to close the action. It costs me 1 small bet, and there is 11 small bets in the pot. This is a clear call with Q3s (or any suited hand).

Most situations are in between these two extremes, and you'll have to use your judgment on whether Q3s is worth calling one more bet. Generally speaking, you are going to need at least 7:1 pot odds or better to call a suited hand with no straight potential in the BB for "one more bet".