KK early

Delphin · #1 01-23-2005, 07:19 PM

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed)

saw flop|saw showdown

Hero (t1010)
SB (t475)
BB (t1225)
UTG (t940)
MP1 (t2465)
MP2 (Villain) (t905)
CO (t980)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP1 calls t30, MP2 (Villain) raises to t150, 1 fold, Hero calls t150, SB calls t135, 1 fold, MP1 folds.

Flop: (t510) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Villain checks, Hero bets t860 (All-In), SB folds, Villain calls t755 (All-In).

Turn: (t2125) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t2125) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t2125

Is this an automatic push preflop? This player had been very passive preflop until now. Given that he obviously likes his hand and will probably call if I push, I thought that it might be safer to call and push on a flop with no Ace.

Insty · #2 01-23-2005, 08:54 PM

looks ok, what is your problem?

Mr_J · #3 01-23-2005, 08:58 PM

I'll take a guess that other posters will say reraise all-in preflop.

Delphin · #4 01-23-2005, 09:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
looks ok, what is your problem?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I played this right. What is the best play with KK in late position facing a large preflop raise? Is it a must push, or is a stop and go a viable option? I had a very strong read that the raiser liked his hand.

Worst case I'm up against AA. If an Ace flops, I might get away with the rest of my chips if I just call preflop and fold to any strength if an Ace hits the board. If I'm against a strong ace, AK-AT there's a good chance of a K high - T high flop giving them TPTK so they are more likely to call my all in, whereas all but AK would probably fold preflop. If they have a lower pocket pair, I want to get in the money preflop rather than letting them have a chance to flop a set.

So what's the right play?

ChrisV · #5 01-23-2005, 10:47 PM

You're overthinking this. Letting them see a flop is bad for the following reasons:

- You don't want to give them a chance to flop an ace with AT-AK. This is just as likely as them hitting the other card (and more likely with AK obviously). Seeing a flop "for safety" is a really weak way of thinking. You're the one with the best hand, not them. They'll damn well pay to see a flop. And also...
- If they have a pocket pair and an ace flops, any player worth their salt will bet anyway and you'll fold the best hand.
- You don't want to give them a chance to flop a set.
- You'll go broke to AA anyway.

There aren't really any positives. There are just no good flops for you.

In this instance where he apparently had QQ, it didn't matter. For my money though, that's a much worse flop for you than Axx. You now lose to every single preflop power hand except AK. I would have proceeded with caution. A bet of 300 would fold AK and TT and allow you to fold to a checkraise. I really doubt AQ checkraises on this flop.

cha59 · #6 01-23-2005, 10:51 PM

I think you have to raise preflop with KK here. You can't worry about someone with AA every time you have KK. You have a very strong hand here.
I'm not sure if it'd be better to go all in, or raise about 500. I'd lean towards 500, but i'm curious about what some of the more experienced players think.

Phil Van Sexton · #7 01-24-2005, 12:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Is this an automatic push preflop? This player had been very passive preflop until now. Given that he obviously likes his hand and will probably call if I push, I thought that it might be safer to call and push on a flop with no Ace.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since he will probably call, I think it's an autopush. You do not want to play for 150 against 2-3 players. You want to play for 905 against 1 player.

The "call and push on the flop" idea is pretty weak, but is really terrible considering you act last on the flop. If someone pushes ahead of you, you've lost all fold equity.

Pokerscott · #8 01-24-2005, 03:22 AM

With a big raise before me pre-flop I push all my chips in preflop very fast.

Why?
-You have the second best hand!
-AA in my experience doesn't raise 5xBB. In my experience, the AA generally will min raise, raise 3xBB or limp in that order.

AA is generally trying to build a pot and give other people a tasty weak looking pot preflop that they can try and 'steal'.

Delphin · #9 01-24-2005, 12:10 PM

Thanks for the responses. I knew that I was getting too fancy, and I got killed for it (which I deserved). The villain had JJ and hit his set on the flop. The hand may have gone the same way even if I pushed preflop, but I would have gotten my chips in as a huge favorite instead of with my two outer.

Next time I push in this situation for sure.