Questions for Ed Miller

[binions]

1. Have you ever played an unsuited, 0-gap connector (T9-54) not in the blinds?

2. If so, why do you recommend never playing them in your SSHE book?

IMO, these hands are quite playable in late position in an unraised pot with multiway action (3-4+ limpers plus the blinds).

[AngryCola]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, these hands are quite playable in late position in an unraised pot with multiway action (3-4+ limpers plus the blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come to think this?
What are your reasons behind this opinion?

I think answers to these questions will help to further the discussion.

[steamboatin]

Wow, and Poker tracker says I'm loose.

[steamboatin]

I don't play any unsuited connectors below JT outside the blinds and Poker Tracker rates me as semi-loose.

[Francis]

I'm not Ed, (nor do I play one on TV)

but unsuited connectors are pretty weak. Per Ed's book, you'd like to have 3 attributes for your starting hands

- high carded'ess
- suiteded'ess
- connected'ess

If you don't have at least 2 (and high card strengh is the most valuable) you probably don't have a +EV hand under any but the BB position.

The only thing you can make with unsuited (non highcard) connectors is a straight that probably won't be the nuts. Possibly 2 pair once in a while.

Do you really find these cards +EV for you? What does PT say? Since I alwasy toss them my data is worthless.

Just curious,
thx,
Francis

[binions]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
IMO, these hands are quite playable in late position in an unraised pot with multiway action (3-4+ limpers plus the blinds).

[/ QUOTE ]

How did you come to think this?
What are your reasons behind this opinion?

I think answers to these questions will help to further the discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

First, these hands are in Sklansky Groups 7 and 8. It's not like I am making this up. Second, straights have great implied odds, since they are more hidden than flushes. Third, 0-gap unsuited cards are roughly 5:1 to flop:

2 pair
3 of a kind
4 of a kind
boat
straight
8 out straight draw (open ended or double gut)

In an unraised pot in position with several limpers, how can you afford to fold these hands?

Sure, sometimes you will flop a straight draw against a 2 flush board. Fine. Subtract 2 outs, and if the pot odds are correct on a 6 outer, go for it.

Heck, with one card to come, straight draws are better than flush draws against a set, since if you hit, you are never pairing the board.

I will say these hands have more value at pot limit where you can make a flush draw lay down after they miss the turn, but I have seen straights take down some huge pots in limit hold'em.

The question remains, has Ed Miller ever played an unsuited 0-gap connector from T9 down to 5-4. I can't imagine the answer is no. And if the answer is yes, why doesn't he address the proper use of these hands in his book?

PS - Here is the math on the unsuited connectors:

Unsuited Max Stretch Connector (JT-54)
1.31% flop a straight
2.02% flop 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house or 4 of a kind
11.76% flop 8 outs to straight draw (open ended or DBB)
16.54% flop a hand worth playing
5.05 to 1 against

Unsuited Max Stretch 1-gap (QT-53)
0.96% flop a straight
2.02% flop 2 pair
1.45% flop trips or full house
9.19% flop 8 out straight draw (open ended or DBB)
13.62% to flop a hand worth playing
6.34 to 1 against

This math does not account for the paired-board and 3-flush flops. The real odds against flopping a hand you want to play are slightly worse than listed above. In addition, for the 2 flush boards, you are effectively flopping a 6 out draw instead of an 8 out draw.

[Ed Miller]

1. Have you ever played an unsuited, 0-gap connector (T9-54) not in the blinds?

Of course I have. I do a lot of stupid stuff when I'm drunk.

2. If so, why do you recommend never playing them in your SSHE book?

Because the number of opportunities to play them profitably is vanishingly small. And your profit when you do play them is equally small. And my goal when I wrote SSH was to give a decent preflop strategy then focus on postflop play. I never wanted to get into the nitty gritty of every possible preflop scenario.

Finally, if you are upset that I don't discuss when playing 76 is profitable, you must be livid that I also avoid A9 and A8. Because those hands are better than 76 and worth playing much more often.

[AngryCola]

"1. Have you ever played an unsuited, 0-gap connector (T9-54) not in the blinds?"

"Of course I have. I do a lot of stupid stuff when I'm drunk."

Classic.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Ed Miller]

Second, straights have great implied odds, since they are more hidden than flushes.

While this might be true and significant in no limit, it's not worth much in limit.

As for your math about how often hands like 76 hit the flop.. 32s hits the flop even more often. You flop all the two pair and trips hands just as often, and, combined, your flush and straight draws are more numerous. But that doesn't make either hand worth playing.

The reason 76 and 32s are both generally not worth playing is a simple one. Your opponents will have hands that are too good, too often.

[binions]

If the answer is you wrote the book for players relatively new to the game, that's fine.

The title, however, promises "expert play."

Experts I know play unsuited connectors in unraised multiway pots in late position.