Queens

[Bigdaddydvo]

Party 30+3 Multi, Blinds 25/50:

Dvo has T1700 and is in CO w/Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

UTG limps, MP3 raises to 200, Dvo calls, BB calls, UTG calls. Pot now has 800 and some change.

Flop:J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets 500 (half his stack) Dvo raises to 1000, BB calls all in, UTG folds, MP3 calls all in.

Anyone else hate the flat call w/queens? I hate putting in that extra reraise and then cursing when the A or K hits the flop. Also, is the effective push on the flop (effective since I had everyone covered) ok? This was precisely the flop I was looking for. Is the concern for MP3 having an overpair worth folding? My read was it was an AK trying to take down pot (quite a few chips w/4 players x4BB each. Thanks.

[cferejohn]

I don't like the flat call. You already had a limper and a raiser, you want to get the chips in preflop if you can. Really, any reasonable raise (600 seems like the right amount) has you pot-committed, so once you raise, you're playing this for all your chips, no matter what flops. Given that, you could either push or raise to 600-700 with a plan of getting all the chips in no matter what. With a hand as strong as QQ, I like the second line better. You probably get it heads up, which is what you want when an overcard flops.

There's no way you're folding on that flop. If you ran into a set or an overpair, that's life. If BB flopped a set of 5's or 7's (which is my guess given the action), realize that a PF raise probably would have pushed him off the hand (and if not, certainly would have led him into a pretty large FTOP mistake).

I'm guessing MP3 has AJ, which is a hand you definitely *want* to isolate against with QQ. Flat calling because you are scared of an A or K is just, well, scared. You have the 3rd best possible hand preflop. Try to get as many chips in as you can then.

[SossMan]

yuck...don't like the flat call at all. I'm making it t550 or t600 there nearly every time.

I don't think that I'm as committed to the hand as cferejohn implies on the flop, but I'm certainly not letting go of an overpair with these stacks.
If an A or K flops, then I'm just going to have to play some poker, but I think that I would be able to get away from it on the flop if the action dictated that I was beat.

[augie00]

The flat call isn't bad. Situations like this are how I tend to agree with Phil Hellmuth.

You have 1500 on the flop and have both of your opponents covered. It is still super early in the tournament. If you flat call and see the flop, you can save the T1500 for a better spot if overcards flop. If you get it all in before the flop, AK is going to call, and you'll be racing for most of your chips. You have enough chips that you don't have to take advantage of a 55:45 edge if you think you can beat the table later on.

Raising all in isn't bad, but I think flat calling is better.

Don't worry about the flop play. This flop is perfect, and you should be happy to get it all in.

I would have played it exactly the same way.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
yuck...don't like the flat call at all. I'm making it t550 or t600 there nearly every time.

I don't think that I'm as committed to the hand as cferejohn implies on the flop, but I'm certainly not letting go of an overpair with these stacks.
If an A or K flops, then I'm just going to have to play some poker, but I think that I would be able to get away from it on the flop if the action dictated that I was beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make it T600 to go preflop and you get two callers, and an A or K flops, there's no poker to be played. Neither of your opponents will have enough chips left to make folding the right play. Calling off most of my chips with QQ on an ace high flop is not something I want to be doing, especially this early. There's four hours of poker left to be played.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yuck...don't like the flat call at all. I'm making it t550 or t600 there nearly every time.

I don't think that I'm as committed to the hand as cferejohn implies on the flop, but I'm certainly not letting go of an overpair with these stacks.
If an A or K flops, then I'm just going to have to play some poker, but I think that I would be able to get away from it on the flop if the action dictated that I was beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you make it T600 to go preflop and you get two callers, and an A or K flops, there's no poker to be played. Neither of your opponents will have enough chips left to make folding the right play. Calling off most of my chips with QQ on an ace high flop is not something I want to be doing, especially this early. There's four hours of poker left to be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I reraise to 11x after a 4x raiser and get two calls w/ my QQ and an ace flops and one or both of them bet into me without having me beat, then they are much better than I and they deserve the pot.

If, on the other (more likely) hand, I only get one caller, and the flop comes ace high, and he checks to me, then we can play some poker.

[ QUOTE ]
especially this early. There's four hours of poker left to be played.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand this thinking. I gaurantee you, Hellmuth isn't talking about flat calling in position when stacks are this shallow.

[augie00]

[ QUOTE ]
If, on the other (more likely) hand, I only get one caller, and the flop comes ace high, and he checks to me, then we can play some poker

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I wasn't as clear as I thought I was. When he checks to you, the automatic play based upon the size of the pot and the size of his stack is to put him all in. He's going to call if he has an ace. If you flat call, you leave yourself much more room to get away from the hand if a scare card comes up.

[ QUOTE ]
I still don't understand this thinking. I gaurantee you, Hellmuth isn't talking about flat calling in position when stacks are this shallow.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as online tournaments go, having 34x the BB is plenty of room to work. The stacks aren't "deep" by any means, but he doesn't have to make anything happen right now. I agree that this is a great spot to pick up some chips, but you don't have to risk so much before the flop when it's probable that you can find a better spot.

Maybe my thinking is completely wrong? Raising is just a fine play, I just think flat calling is better.

[Bigdaddydvo]

Perhaps some awful flashback to that Cloutier NL book inspired the flat call. *Disclaimer--Not a bad beat story* but MP3 had Aces. Given that flop, there is 0% chance that I would not go broke. However, since he put in a standard preflop raise w/aces and I flat called, doesn't an A or K flopping give me a chance to get away from the hand?

Also, with 30+BB, I don't think it's necessary to push w/QQ just yet. 15BB or fewer, yeah, it's an autopush, but this hand I convinced myself that I could play well enough post flop to flat call w/moderately deep stacks.

Thanks to all for the input.

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that this is a great spot to pick up some chips, but you don't have to risk so much before the flop when it's probable that you can find a better spot.


[/ QUOTE ]

some might say that not raising is more risky than flat calling. Unless you are going to play very weak tight on the flop.

[JohnG]

Chips are a little too shallow to normally just call with QQ. Flat call the raise on deeper money.