Bad river fold?

DavidC · #1 12-30-2004, 09:54 PM

Hey guys.

This is from my first session of 2/4 at party. I'm still trying to get more comfortable there, because I mostly play the .5/1 tables.

I folded this river because the pot wasn't enormous and because I was following the premise that "a caller can not be bluffing."

It was 9bb back to me on the river, and I didn't know for sure that there was a 10% chance of me winning. What do you guys think?

Please comment on the entire hand if you notice anything on earlier streets.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

River: (7 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

gaming_mouse · #2 12-30-2004, 10:00 PM

Even with that scary heart, a better line on the river is to bet and fold to a re-raise.

However, given the way you played it, I think the fold was okay. If MP had not called, a call would be more clear.

gm

DavidC · #3 12-30-2004, 10:08 PM

Thanks for your help.

I'll give that a shot. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

OOC, why would you bet and fold to a raise, as opposed to check-calling or check-folding? Thing is, betting builds the pot, so if you do fold it's on a larger pot... but you're also more sure that you're hand is not good.

Anything you want to fill me in on? Or a post I could read or a section in SSHE or HPFAP?

If it were just one opp, I could call as you said, but since there's two, there's a possibility that someone just made two pair or that they have a better kicker, and they've called the guy with the flush with it. (as you know... just filling you in on my thought process here).

--Dave.

brandon · #4 12-30-2004, 10:47 PM

I dont like folding top pair on the river for 1 BB. If you played it this far, might as well finish it.

You will win at least 1/9 of time.

AdamL · #5 12-30-2004, 11:44 PM

One more vote here for bet and fold to a raise. If you check you should call imo.

DavidC · #6 12-31-2004, 01:32 AM

Results were:

Bettor had the flush.

Caller had ace with a worse kicker than I did. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I don't like the idea of calling just because I checked.

If it were HU, then yeah, definitely call if you check, even if the top card was a king and you just have ace-high.

However, once there is another caller involved, I don't really like the idea of calling after I check.

That being said, if you think I'll win it > 10% of the time, it's profitable, so I should call.

It's worth noting that in this hand my call closes the action. Calling here has less risk than calling in the middle of the action.

I don't know if I like the idea of betting and folding to a raise, but I'll seriously consider it. I'm curious about what other hands the callers may have had... maybe a baby straight draw?

--Dave.

me454555 · #7 12-31-2004, 01:39 AM

This is a HORRIBLE fold, and I really emphisize horrible. Theres no raise pf, no one bets into you on any street it was checked to the last person to bet on the river and you fold for 1 bet closing the action?!?!?!

Is there a chance that MP is bluffing? Is there a chance MP is betting a worse ace? You can't make these kinds of folds on the river if you want to be successful playing 2/4

On top of that, you must bet this river. The fact that there were no bets or raises tends to tell me that it is less like that a flush draw is out there. I'm writing this after reading the results but I still stick by my read the majority of the time. A flush draw shows some aggression on the flop and I think you need to be betting these rivers in these situations.

holdemfan · #8 12-31-2004, 01:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
why would you bet and fold to a raise, as opposed to check-calling or check-folding? Thing is, betting builds the pot, so if you do fold it's on a larger pot... but you're also more sure that you're hand is not good.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you gave up the lead you signaled you didn't like the chances your hand held as much. This is a clear reason for someone to bet into you even if you have them beat. Your assumption of them catching the flush was correct but if you had been wrong you just gave them your money. By checking you said I surrender take the pot. By betting you say I still have a hand and the reraise would then allow you to decide that the opponent is likely to have you beat. You might find they also had an A or possibly less and they might have folded on the river. It wasn't terrible to check but if you are going to call anyway why not be the one to lead. If you are certain your beat its good but you can't tell here by checking.

bisonbison · #9 12-31-2004, 01:54 AM

You need to bet this river every goddamn time.

pokerkai · #10 12-31-2004, 02:19 AM

The fishies at 2/4 are dying to call you with a boatload of worse hands here. This is a clear river value bet.

And yes the caller isnt bluffing, but he sure as hell hasnt given you any reason at all to believe he has you beat. Call that down.