Called down with two-pair

[River2Pair]

This one has been bugging me since about two weeks ago.

Live 4/8

Game was very good, most flops were six-way or more. I limp in with K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the cutoff.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

I wasn't too thrilled about that flop especially when UTG, who seemed to be the most rational player at the table, bet.

Three callers to me, I call, closing the action.

Turn was a 3, same action.

River was a 7 (no flush possible). UTG bets. It folds to me and I call.

Should I have raised somewhere? River?

I figured nobody would lay down an ace if I raised on the flop, and people play so many A-rag hands that I'd have no idea if I was still ahead (if I indeed was ahead on the flop) when the turn card and river came out. At the same time, I thought I needed to show my hand down unless an ace came out or I was faced with two bets cold.

So is keeping people in the pot my best strategy here?

[bisonbison]

This sucks.

Raise the flop.

[MoDOH]

You have to either raise the flop or the Turn. Just calling down is bad...

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I figured nobody would lay down an ace if I raised on the flop

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You don´t raise because you want an A to fold,although that would be nice. You raise because you have the best hand and want to make all one pair hands and gutshot pay for drawing out on you.

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and people play so many A-rag hands that I'd have no idea if I was still ahead (if I indeed was ahead on the flop) when the turn card and river came out

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Well of course you don´t know if you are ahead or not. You haven´t defined your hand yet.

[Avatar]

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This sucks.


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I couldn't have said it better myself.

That's as passive as it gets man. You don't want to be that kind of player at the table. Get pushing your edges. Hands like these make you lots of money in the long run!

[River2Pair]

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This sucks.


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I couldn't have said it better myself.

That's as passive as it gets man. You don't want to be that kind of player at the table. Get pushing your edges. Hands like these make you lots of money in the long run!

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I believe Bobby Baldwin, in Super System said that there is no hand that has lost him more money than bottom two pair.

Of course he is referring to much tougher games.

So am I wrong to not see my hand as a monster here?

[housenuts]

i raise the flop for sure. if nothing else you get an idea of who's serious about this hand. after that if someone bets into you you have to be cautious but i can't see myself folding

[Brian462]

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So am I wrong to not see my hand as a monster here?

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You're wrong for thinking you need a monster to raise on the flop.

[SamIAm]

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I wasn't too thrilled about that flop especially when UTG, who seemed to be the most rational player at the table, bet.

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Really? How are you not thrilled by this? He's a rational player, but he probably just has an A. As far as I'm concerned, you're way ahead of tons of hands that would bet here, and you'll get action. Sure, he might out-draw you by the end, but you're ahead now. RAISE.
-Sam

[River2Pair]

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i raise the flop for sure. if nothing else you get an idea of who's serious about this hand. after that if someone bets into you you have to be cautious but i can't see myself folding

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See, thats the thing. I can't see myself folding either, unless I get counterfeited. I don't really want to get 3-bet either, when plenty of people were content to come along for the ride one bet at a time and then fold the river. The way I played it, the main risk I faced is that when I am ahead, I am letting hands like QJ to stick around for cheap.

I'm not sure yet whether aggression is right in this spot. What I did didn't feel right at the time, and still bothers me to some extent.

How often do you guys think I'm ahead on the flop?

How often that I am ahead on the flop, will I still be good on the river?

[tolbiny]

I'm going to buck the trend here and allow the flop call. Its not to bad at this point if two things are likely to happen-
1. There will be a bet that you can raise on the turn.
2. several people will call that bet, but may fold to your raise on the turn.

I see this all the time in live games wehre a bunch of people call a turn bet and then fold to the raise. If this is fairly likely in your hand then calling the flop and raiseing the turn is the best play here.