A perfect example

I have two questions below:


Game $3/$6 Hold'em - 2001/09/24 (CST)

Table "Aruba" (real money) -- Seat 5 is the button

Seat 1: player 1 ($166 in chips)

Seat 2: player 2 ($154 in chips)

Seat 5: player 3 ($118 in chips)

Seat 6: player 4 ($192 in chips)

Seat 7: natedogg ($81 in chips)

player 4 : Post Small Blind ($1)

natedogg: Post Big Blind ($3)

Dealing...

Dealt to natedogg [ 5c ]

Dealt to natedogg [ Ah ]

player 1 : Call ($3)

player 2 : Fold

player 3: Fold

player 4 : Call ($2)

natedogg: Check

*** FLOP *** : [ Qd As 8h ]

player 4 : Check

natedogg: Bet ($3)

player 1 : Call ($3)

player 4 : Fold

*** TURN *** : [ Qd As 8h ] [ 2h ]

natedogg: Check

player 1 : Bet ($6)

natedogg: Raise ($12)

player 1 : Call ($6)

*** RIVER *** : [ Qd As 8h 2h ] [ 8d ]

natedogg: Check

player 1 : Bet ($6)

natedogg: Call ($6)

*** SUMMARY ***

Pot: $49 | Rake: $2

Board: [ Qd As 8h 2h 8d ]

player 1 bet $24, collected $49, net +$25 (showed hand) [ Jh 8s ] (three of a kind, eights)

player 2 didn't bet (folded)

player 3 didn't bet (folded)

player 4 lost $3 (folded)

natedogg lost $24 [ 5c Ah ] (two pair, aces and eights)


1. Is my call on the river a big leak?


2. Did my opponent make any mistakes?


At one time, I would have thought those were smart-ass questions, but I'm starting to doubt everything I know about limit holdem, so believe me, these are serious questions.


natedogg

This situation; flop I check raise...then it makes him hard to peel another card on the turn when you bet out at him. Perhaps your way of playing wins more in the long run, with a higher variance. I'm not sure. I just find that CRing the flop and betting out the turn is the way here. I'm not a fan of making strong CR moves on the turn when I don't improve.


I think your call on the river is a must, seeing as you are splitting with any decent ace, and his play here typifies a passive faggy player with a haggard ace.


Miles...So What?

How can you seriously discuss strategy if you're unsure the game is honest?

The place where I see a possible mistake is on the turn, by both players. I would almost never try for the check-raise on the turn as you are weak, and doing so opens you up to being three-bet by a better hand, or causing a worse hand to fold. The problem with check raising is that you are now laying him a bigger pot to draw at. He is getting 6:1 implied odds on a draw (as opposed to 3:1) and he has a pair which might be good. In this particular circumstance you forced the worse hand to put in two big bets, but what's going to happen on average? The better hands are surely going to call, and the worse hands are going to check it through far too often to make this play worthwhile.


You are out of position, and you need to keep up the pressure. If I were offered a free card on the turn with bottom pair on the flop, I would usually let it check through hoping to induce a bluff on the river.


Other than the turn, both players played it exactly as I would have played the hand. Of course, these are just my own personal opinions.


- Andrew

nate,


I won't go into much detail on whether a bet or CR on the turn

would have been better, but you played fine. Your opponent played

very poorly and got lucky.


Mark

You both played this hand poorly!!! In any case you are in trouble from the beginning and your opponent just got lucky. Why would he stay in with his hand. How had you played previously to give him the idea that you would bet and even check raise without a strong hand. After he bet the flop you have to assume he has something and your hand is not strong enough to continue much less go for a check raise. You received 4 warnings. 1)he bet the flop. 2)he bet the turn after you checked. 3)he called your check raise on the turn. 4)he bet the river after you checked (unafraid of another check raise). You are holding cards that must hit the flop a lot harder to show any profit. Just think of all the cards your opponent could have that would leave you drawing dead. You have every few outs and are going after a small pot. No profit here....fold.....next hand.

nt

nt

IMO, check-raising the turn here is a huge mistake. After betting the flop and now having the hand heads up you MUST bet the turn. You really cant expect him to bet the turn when you check to him (unless he has consistently done this in the past, not sure as we have no background). But giving a free card to a gutshot or whatever he could have here could be a big mistake. Granted the guy was obviously an idiot and he probably wouldn't fold anyway if he is playing that trash and calling the flop to begin with, but its still an error to check the turn.


Just my 2 cents.


-ActionBob