give up and accept second?

[lucas9000]

in the last couple days i've found myself in particular situations where i'm either short-stacked or one of the short stacks on the bubble. i have been playing this scenario well and consistently making it into the money, and in the situations i'm specifically asking about in this post, i've ended up heads up against the chip leader. the times in question i've had around T3,000 chips and chip leader has had around T10,000 (i've been playing on full tilt, where everyone starts with T1,500 chips). now, i could grind it out and really bust my ass to go for first, but on both occasions i've just gone all in on every hand, telling the big stack what my cards are, to just get the thing over with. my thinking has been that it wasn't worth the difference in money between first and second, considering the time it would take and the significant chip disadvantage i'm facing.

now, i'm not saying i always settle for second, just that in the two occasions like this recently i've done so. is this line of thinking (that my time and effort aren't necessarily worth the less-than-50-50 chance that i'll get first, when i've already got second locked) anywhere close to reasonable? or am i just a complete boob?

[MrX]

[ QUOTE ]
is this line of thinking (that my time and effort aren't necessarily worth the less-than-50-50 chance that i'll get first, when i've already got second locked) anywhere close to reasonable? or am i just a complete boob?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are a COMPLETE BOOB!

Seriously what the heck are you thinking. I assume these are 10 man SNG's with a 50-30-20 payout so of course you should be playing to win when it gets down to the end. This is CRUCIAL time in a SNG. Play once it gets down to 3 people is one of the most under-discussed aspects of SNG play. Everyone seems fixated on bubble play and making iot into the $ (for obviuos reasons), but to be atruly successful player you need to maximize every opportunity to make more $ and you have a great chance.

In your scenario with 10k vs your 3k, if you double up once you have virtually an even stack.

Honestly, I cannot even believe you posted this question, to me there is no real discussion necessary.

When down to two, no matter what your stack size is..play to win!

When I read your post I thought you going to give a bizarre scenario where 3 players remained and the 2 identical large stacks were both all in and you were deciding what to do with your small stack and JJ in the BB. That might be worth discussing.

MrX

[jcm4ccc]

wow. I'm not giving up on 1st place ever, even with 100 chips. 1st place is where you make your money. 2nd and 3rd place is just treading water.

Here's what I mean. Let's say you never get 1st place, that you evenly split your wins between 2nd and 3rd, and you are in the money 50% of the time.

Stars $50 + $5 tournament, 2nd place pays $135 (profit = $80), 3rd place pays $90 (profit = $35).

Your take:
50% * -$55 = -$27.5
25% * $80 = $20.00
25% * $35 = $8.75

Average profit = $1.25
ROI = 2.2%

Barely breaking even.

If you're not going to grind it out in this situation, why even play?

[junkmail3]

[ QUOTE ]
anywhere close to reasonable? or am i just a complete boob?

[/ QUOTE ]

Usually the difference betweeen 1st and 2nd is pretty big. If you just give up, you can't develop skill and working from even stacks or even a slightly lower stack. You're giving up much more than just 1st place prize when you give up. It really doesn't take that long to finish out a SnG when you get to 2nd. Why not just settle for 4th when you get there, the money difference is the same between 4th/3rd as it is between 2nd/1st.

[sofere]

Are you a boob? Let's put it this way, if there were two of you standing next to each other, it would make Pam Anderson look like an A cup.

There's a 66.7 % increase in payout and a 112.5% increase in profit from 2nd place to 1st place. Why is that not worth your time? If your bored, start another game while you play heads up.

Edit: Unless you're playing against me, then by all means give up.

[lucas9000]

[ QUOTE ]
You are a COMPLETE BOOB!

[/ QUOTE ]

that's kind of what i thought. thanks for confirming it.

and yes, my handle is the same on partypoker so go ahead everyone and start adding me to your buddy lists so you can get in sng's with me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Hauser_III]

You play, and you play down to the last chip. First, the experience you gain from short-handed play is worth the time, even if you spend an extra 25 minutes on this "hopeless" situation and end up finishing 2nd. Second, you're not doomed to finishing second, not by any means. It's about a 3-1 disadvantage and, while it's not comfortable, it's not insurmountable by any means. I can't begin to tell you how many 7-stud hi-lo SNG's I've won when I've been seriously short-stacked when it gets down to the final 2. Play the cards, play to win, and think of the time spent as a wise investment even if you ultimately finish 2nd.

[MrX]

Three stages of a SNG

pre bubble: poor play lowers ROI, but good play does not raise your ROI much

bubble: poor play lowers ROI and good play raises ROI

post bubble: poor play lowers ROI and good play raises ROI

I would argue the prebubble play is the easiest and least inportant to your overall ROI if playing smart. The two things to try to master here are getting paid off huge with sets and with AA/KK, as you play more you'll find the optimal strategy for this at each level.

Bubble and postbubble play are nearly equal IMO, so do not miss out on such an important facet of SNG play.

Interestingly there is not much skill and strategy in the HU aspect of a SNG since the stack/blind ration is so low. These HU matches at the end of a SNG play out so much differently than deeper stack HU play (a truly fun game).

MrX

[PE101]

This is a great thread!

I think an "In the Money" forum would be really valuable!

"In the Money" and "Heads-up" play is certainly differnt from tourney play at large.

[sofere]

I absolutely agree...and hope eventually there is a section in AleoMagus's guide for in the money play.

I've recently discovered that I suck at in the money (about 50% 2nd, 40% 3rd, 10% 1st in my small sample of 57 games) and would greatly appreciate any advice offered.