Lots of draws, no hand

[grimmett]

$100NL $2/$3 at Commerce
Villian is tight/passive and obviously frustrated at not getting cards.
Hero has TAG image and has only shown good cards when called down.
Hero ($150) on button w/K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]<,10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
One or two limpers to MP ($150 roughly) who makes it $15 to go.
Hero calls, UTG calls.
Flop comes 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG checks, MP bets $30 quickly and seems pissed off
Hero calls, UTG folds
Turn comes 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
MP bets $30 in the same manner as before
Hero calls
River is 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
MP checks quickly and seems even more upset
Hero bets $50
Thoughts? I think I should have played this hand differently, but I'm interested to hear others opinions.
Brad

[DavidC]

Did he have something like QQ?

I don't know... I'm still pretty instinctual at this game, but I'd figure at some point you have to fire chips at the guy to make him put it down. The turn seemed like the best opportunity, as he could easily put you on slowplaying a set or hitting a draw at this point.

I suppose he could also have a 9 and was worried that someone could outdraw him, but if he made it $15, what goes with 9 that he would play for $15 and get pissed when he bets?

Only problem is that someone who's pissed off will be more likely to call.

[parttimepro]

[ QUOTE ]
One or two limpers to MP ($150 roughly) who makes it $15 to go.

[/ QUOTE ]
Conventional wisdom would have you fold here. Unless you've got some devious plan to bluff later, I can't see calling 10% of your stack with a non-nut flush draw and 3-gapper.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop comes 9 ,7 ,9
UTG checks, MP bets $30 quickly and seems pissed off

[/ QUOTE ]
This was about as good a flop as you could reasonably expect, and you're probably still behind. Villian probably doesn't have the 9, so I wouldn't be too worried about my flush being beaten by a boat. Right now I'd put him on either overpair or overcards, and definitely wouldn't count K's among my outs. I might call here because of position and pot odds, but I wouldn't feel good about it.

[ QUOTE ]
Turn comes 8
MP bets $30 in the same manner as before

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So now you've got a straight draw too. Well, you've still got pot odds to call. Again, I put MP on overcards or an overpair. Given the relative distribution of each, probably overcards. This would explain why he's getting pissed off: the one time he gets AK, and he can't pair it. That said, how can you win this hand? If you push here, he might call just out of desperation. After all, it's hard to put you on a hand that beats him. If you had JJ, you'd have raised the flop to prevent an overcard from coming; if you had a 9, you'd want him to see the river and pair his A, so you'd just call.

[ QUOTE ]
MP checks quickly and seems even more upset
Hero bets $50

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, unless you think he's the type to try to win an Oscar, this solidifies my read of AK. I like the bet here, but I think you should push. Depending on the situation and his emotional state, he may make a crying call for less than half the pot. If you raise the turn, I think he's more likely to call, because he'll figure he could draw an A or K.

[elnino12]

First, I fold K10 suited for that raise even with position. Second, if you're going to play this--push on the turn or the river, but make sure it's a push, and make sure you know villian has the ability to lay down overpairs. The problem with calling the turn is that you've almost committed yourself to this hand with only one card to come, even with about 15 outs. Villian is probably afraid of a set (unless he has AK/AQ) and will check-call the river, which isn't good for you. I think the best approach is to fold this preflop, but that's just me. Interested in results, and I hope it worked out for you.

[BobboFitos]

I understand opening for 15$ is only 5x bb, but your stacks (even 150) dont make it profitable to cold call with an easily dominated hand that is KT.

I would fold, but given you didn't, calling each street has merit, as once you made the initial PF mistake, I'd believe the subsequent decision was ok.

If he's a thinking player, he's going to see the deuce on the river, and say, "what could he have?" Well, you could've been stringing him along with trips, just calling down to get it in on the river, or some kind of draw. Each draw (any OESD on the flop or 4flush) missed, so he might call you light there.

The problem with the bluff is the pot is 165, and you're only betting 50. So he probably should pay off with a wide range of hands, as he only has to be right a small % of the time.

I like just calling on the flop, in order to get the 3rd player to come along.

On the turn, once you've picked up the sraight draw, I *might* be inclined to make a move there. BUT - this player bets the turn again, and typically when AK/AQ miss the flop, and players follow up, they slow the turn. You have little to no equity against an OP, and if this player is so steamed as you say, he might not even fold bare overcards. So calling is fine.

I probably would've either abandoned ship on the river, or pushed it in. (75$ more)

[DavidC]

Thanks for the replies guys... I was just about to bump the thread... didn't think it was fair that the only response was mine, given how new I am to the game.

These replies helped me out too.

[grimmett]

Thanks for the replies everyone. There is a lot of good advice in those replies.
I agree with the pre-flop advice...calling the flop was a mistake for sure....but the flop looked good for me. I just called the flop to try to bring the other player along, and also to set myself up to represent a nine if I missed my draw, since a set in this situation would likely just call. The turn is where I think I really made a mistake. I put this guy on A,K the whole way, and the $30 bet on the turn seemed to confirm that for me based on what I felt was his unwillingness to give up on a hand that he thought should win. My plan was to raise (possibly push) on the turn if I missed my draw. The proverbial "stick in the spokes" for me was that I picked up the straight draw on the turn. I had so many outs on the river that I began to think I couldn't lose. Instead of making a play for the pot on the turn I (mistakenly) decided to try to suck him in further so that my straight or flush would REALLY pay off on the river. Well, that plan obviously failed. When he checked on the river I was completely convinced that he had A,K and that there was no way he could call a bet on the river. I made the $50 bet to make it look like I was trying to milk him. I felt like pushing looked more like a bluff than betting $50. Also, my table image was such that my betting on the river all but confirmed that I had him severly beat. He debated a call for over a minute, and finally did call....with A,K! Everyone at the table, including me, was shocked at his call here. How do you make that call? I certainly don't. So, my last question would be....Do you think this is a good call? Personally, I think this was just a stubborn call. He was having a bad run of cards and couldn't bring himself to lay down the best hand he'd seen all night. Whether he connected or not he was determined to play this hand to the river. What do you think?
Thanks.
Brad

[TrailofTears]

I'm just going to jump in late here so I hope you don't mind. I will only comment on your latest "results" post, not the initial one.

First, I don't like your rationale of not making a play on the turn, where it would have been the strongest move. You say you had so many outs and wanted to suck him in, but you have to realize that any one of your outs will likely kill the action, making the board four to the straight and three to the flush. Since you have been calling all streets up until then, he will likely check to you and fold to a significant bet, seeing that might have caught either the straight or flush. At best, you might get him to call a small bet, but this is not worth the risk of not catching a card and losing your best chance to bluff at the pot. Hope this makes sense. If not, feel free to put me in check.

Second, I definitely think it was just a stubborn call by him. He is probably one of the many players who overvalue their AK and don't know when to let it go. If that's me, I easily muck those cards and wait for a better opportunity to get my money back. I guess this kind of contradicts my theory that you lost your chance to bluff at the pot, since I think this bluff should have worked after seeing his hand. We should all be so lucky to get to play with people like this guy though. I hope you took every penny back plus interest.

-ToT

[grimmett]

[ QUOTE ]

First, I don't like your rationale of not making a play on the turn, where it would have been the strongest move.
-ToT

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, you're right about that. It was certainly a mistake. But I wouldn't call it "rationale", I would call it "un-rationale". Of course, I still think my river bet should have done the trick, but you live and learn I guess. Thanks for the response.
Brad