Over pair good ?

simpsp31 · #1 12-15-2004, 04:57 AM

Hi guys,

Heres a slightly interesting hand i played the other night, BB is very loose and will call pre flop raises with almost any two, seems to play post flop fairly competently.

I opened with my standard raise, called in 2 spots, flop seems good so 3\4 pot is my usual line here after pf raise. I wasnt thrilled to get a call from BB as he could have literally anything here, i've played many hands with him and seen him show down every kind of bizarre holding.

His lead on the turn really confused me, i simply couldnt put him on a hand and decided i needed to raise to find out how much he liked it. Also with the button still to act i didnt want to price any draws in by just calling. When he came back over the top i felt i had all the info i needed and mucked to what i thought was a probable set or straight.

Any comments or criticisms ? He showed his hand, results to follow.

Thanks Paul.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Hero ($280.8)
Button ($111.7)
SB ($382.6)
BB ($173.8)
UTG ($132.9)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8, Button calls $8, SB folds, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $18, Button calls $18, BB calls $18.

Turn: ($79) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets $30, Hero raises to $60, Button folds, BB raises to $147.8 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $286.80

AncientPC · #2 12-15-2004, 01:58 PM

Smells like T8s that caught an OESD on the flop, or it could be a slowplayed 2 pair.

simpsp31 · #3 12-16-2004, 02:11 AM

Ok not as interesting as i thought ! So everyone agrees with the turn raise, then muck to the all in ?

FWIW he showed 78 off suit.

Paul

element00 · #4 12-16-2004, 02:27 AM

I opened with my standard raise, called in 2 spots, flop seems good so 3\4 pot is my usual line here after pf raise. I wasnt thrilled to get a call from BB as he could have literally anything here, i've played many hands with him and seen him show down every kind of bizarre holding.

--- due to that, I'd put the pressure on, hope he raises me and i'd call.. this is if he usually doesn't bet with the best hand from what you've seen. Now if he does.. it's still a toss up, he could be trying to use that image, but really from your read on him, I'd call with queens + in that situation, him leading on the turn is just way too bizarre... other than him holding 810... other than that there's not many hands you can pin him on, other than catching tp... and if you honestly think he has 2 pair, you've still got that chance for hidden outs.

But over-all I'd muck the hand if I didn't have a read on how he plays his hands on avg. but I've found people on party never cease to amaze you.

TheWorstPlayer · #5 12-16-2004, 02:41 AM

Straight draw, flush draw, and you bet less than the pot with multiple callers? I woulda bet a bit more on the flop. That being said, nothing insulates you from being bluffed out of a pot. I probably woulda folded that, too.

BobboFitos · #6 12-16-2004, 02:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: Hero is MP with Q, Q.
UTG folds, Hero raises to $8, Button calls $8, SB folds, BB calls $6.

Flop: ($25) 7, 9, 2 (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $18, Button calls $18, BB calls $18.

Turn: ($79) 6 (3 players)
BB bets $30, Hero raises to $60, Button folds, BB raises to $147.8 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $286.80

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont like your Turn raise because...

It looks like a turn raise for information, and quite simply, 60$ is too much to pay.

If you're ahead you should raise more anyways, continuing to price out other hands.
If you're behind you probably dont have enough legitamate outs to continue after the bet of 30$.

His lead bet on the turn is interesting... The 6 isn't a blank because it completed the T8 straight, which short handed and closing PF that's possible. Leading out after hitting can be fairly effective, as it is in this case.

I think once you get 3 bet, the fold is good, as it's highly dubious he has a worse hand (UP is possible? TP highly doubtful... A turn semibluff would be more than 30 you'd think, or just call the min raise... Really, you're up against a better hand a large % of the time IMO)

Problem is I'm not sure the best way to handle it. Folding isn't an option, and raising is very expensive. Is calling wrong? I dont know, I like raising better, but I'm not sure why. And here you're crushed, and nearly PCed to calling him. Good fold though, getting such a good price I dont know if I could.

BobboFitos · #7 12-16-2004, 02:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ok not as interesting as i thought ! So everyone agrees with the turn raise, then muck to the all in ?

FWIW he showed 78 off suit.

Paul

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok nice, considered that it was a turn semibluff, didn't put a high % of chance it was though.

I still think it's a good fold, as a much larger % of the time it's what he's representing. He had guts to 3bet you there as you're nearly PCed to calling...

I really dont know the best way to handle this turn - if you just call, it allows him to set his own price.
If you raise, you have to fold to a 3bet, and here a worse hand if making you lay down.
Folding would be weak, end of the story there.

I think if I made the raise I would've called his all in, (and not liked it) situationally liking my pot odds, but that's messy due to the turn action.

Honestly though, with short stacks, (Villain has 70? I'm not sure exact amount) dying with OP isn't good, but it's not really the leak it would be at 100BB or more games.

simpsp31 · #8 12-16-2004, 03:20 AM

-I really dont know the best way to handle this turn - if you just call, it allows him to set his own price.
If you raise, you have to fold to a 3bet, and here a worse hand if making you lay down.
Folding would be weak, end of the story there.

I agree, all of these options have a downside, also the presence of the button still to act makes this more complicated, i cant just call as i will then be pricing in the button if he is on a draw.

He made a great play leading the turn for a healthy bet, i still cant get a handle on what the right move is here.

Thansk Paul