My first poll: BB special makes 2 pair

[topspin]

Table is unremarkable. Players are of the usual fishy type, but no one seems insane as yet.

First page of comments in white as usual, please.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Flop: (8.5 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero ...

[droolie]

<font color="white">I think you have to raise this flop. Your probably winning but your hand is vulnerable and you really want to get the UTG's to fold right here. Waiting for the turn is more likely to cost you the pot than win it for you. </font>

[TwoShedsJackson]

<font color="white"> You need to wait until the turn, I think. Most of the players you're playing against wont even considered not having odds to call on a gutshot draw, they'll call anyway.

There are plenty of cards you don't want to see on the turn - its better to wait and raise the double-sized bet on the turn.

Isn't there a very similar hand to this somewhere in SSH?</font>

[JordanIB]

This is a no-brainer, no?

Unless I'm doing something drastically wrong in my play, I'm raising this every time.

Board is way too coordinated to let either MP1, or especially the others, chase cheaply.

[JordanIB]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the players you're playing against wont even considered not having odds to call on a gutshot draw, they'll

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that precisely a reason to raise? Because others will call with incorrect odds?

[topspin]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="white"> This is a no-brainer, no? </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it too late to ask for an edit to white text, at least for the first page of comments? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="white"> You need to wait until the turn, I think. Most of the players you're playing against wont even considered not having odds to call on a gutshot draw, they'll call anyway./color]

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="white">It doesn't matter if they consider the odds or not. You're offering them poor odds, and they are making a mistake by calling, increasing your portion of the pot (equity) more than their own. (See: ToP)

The board is way too coordinated to let them draw cheaply and there is no guarantee that the flop bettor will bet on the turn (they could be on a draw as well). I raise this every time.</font>

-d

[meep_42]

Oh, and fold pf. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

One gapped suiteds in a small field aren't worth it, to me. Make either card a 9, and I'd call.

-d

[TwoShedsJackson]

I found the hand in SSH on page 160-161 - Ed Miller's advice there is to wait for the turn although the pot is larger on the flop (12.5 bets versus 8.5) - judging by the poll I'm the only one who thinks you should wait for the turn, I must be weak [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

[Entity]

<font color="white">This is an insanely coordinated board. Wait until the turn to raise for protection and for value; a good portion of the deck, at this point, are cards that you'd rather not see (spades, J's, 9's, K's, A's). BTW, it's clear you missed something in typing up this hand history -- BB checks... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

BTW, this example seemed almost straight out of SSH, and I don't think the pot size being slightly smaller changes things much. It's because of how vulnerable your hand is (and how much your equity will go up on the turn) that you wait.</font>