JTo from UTG+2....HUGE pot

Harv72b · #1 12-11-2004, 12:17 AM

Background: A terrible session for me. I'm tired, I'm taking bad beat after bad beat, I'm down to $33 from my $100 buy-in, and I should have stopped playing an hour before. Aside from that, great table.

Reads: MP1 is crazy loose, but generally passive unless he hits a big hand. Button is crazy aggressive preflop & has been raising hands that I wouldn't even play. He generally settles down after the flop, though. CO and SB had just sat down & I had no previous hands against either. The table in general had been very loose.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO calls, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks, MP1 bets, CO calls, Button raises, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP1 folds, CO raises, Button 3-bets(button is all in), SB caps, BB calls, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (31 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, SB calls, Hero is all in ($1 more), BB folds, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 36.50 BB
Main Pot: 36.50 BB, between CO, Button, SB and Hero.

Questions:
1) Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose & I was borderline tilting.
2) Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn, but fatigue & apathy about my remaining chips conspired to keep me in. It also didn't hurt that the pot was so friggin' huge already.
3) Do you agree with the slowplay on the flop? My reasoning was that I wasn't going to push anyone off of 2 hearts, JQ, or even KQ at that point (to say nothing of the 4th T if it was out there), so I figured it was better to downplay my holding until the turn & hope that the draws didn't come through (or that I hit the FH & they did).
4) If you have a lot of time on your hands, feel free to take a stab at the other players' holdings. I'll share 'em later.

Tosh · #2 12-11-2004, 12:23 AM

Ok thats a fold preflop but ignoring that I think:

1) you should go to war on the flop. Continue with your original plan to check raise.
2) give serious consideration to folding the turn for 3 bets.
3) not play with only $29 on a 2/4 table.

MoreWineII · #3 12-11-2004, 12:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Questions:
1) Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose & I was borderline tilting.
2) Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn, but fatigue & apathy about my remaining chips conspired to keep me in. It also didn't hurt that the pot was so friggin' huge already.
3) Do you agree with the slowplay on the flop? My reasoning was that I wasn't going to push anyone off of 2 hearts, JQ, or even KQ at that point (to say nothing of the 4th T if it was out there), so I figured it was better to downplay my holding until the turn & hope that the draws didn't come through (or that I hit the FH & they did).
4) If you have a lot of time on your hands, feel free to take a stab at the other players' holdings. I'll share 'em later.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. No. I think the fact that people are making it 2, 3, 4 bets before the flop is more reason *not* to play it. But you were on tilt, ok, we've all been there.

2. I don't fold it - anywhere. Well, cept preflop.

3. I think it's fine. No reason to scream out what you have now. And the only hands you'll fold are probably hands that you don't want to fold.

4. Sounds like you lost the hand, so I assume somebody had JJ (button?). Since you really sound beat up, I'm going to guess SB had you beat on the turn with QJ. SO has 99. At least you got the side pot?

Oh, yah, the all-in thing is bad.

Harv72b · #4 12-11-2004, 12:28 AM

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3) not play with only $29 on a 2/4 table.

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It was $33, but either way, it's less than $48. I lost money because of that on this hand, and usually know better. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Harv72b · #5 12-11-2004, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
4. Sounds like you lost the hand, so I assume somebody had JJ (button?). Since you really sound beat up, I'm going to guess SB had you beat on the turn with QJ. SO has 99. At least you got the side pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually did win both pots. It felt weird to be the recipient of a miracle river card for once, and it's a feeling I don't hope to repeat any time soon. Well, maybe in a NL tourney where I end up all in preflop.

nepenthe · #6 12-11-2004, 12:53 AM

I don't blame your decision to play JTo in this position per se.

[ QUOTE ]
1) Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose

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This is an acceptable justification.

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& I was borderline tilting.

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This is not.

jokerthief · #7 12-11-2004, 01:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I actually did win both pots. It felt weird to be the recipient of a miracle river card for once, and it's a feeling I don't hope to repeat any time soon. Well, maybe in a NL tourney where I end up all in preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not really that much of a miracle. Even if you could see the sb hand and it was QJ, it would be incorrect to fold. You are 4.6-1 to hit the full house or 4 of a kind. The pot is laying you 15-1 on the first call and 9.67 to 1 on the second. I think you played it perfectly and the chance that someone had JJ is more than made up by the times that they don't.

jokerthief

Harv72b · #8 12-11-2004, 06:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you have a lot of time on your hands, feel free to take a stab at the other players' holdings. I'll share 'em later.

[/ QUOTE ]

As promised, here's what I was up against. Results are still in white in case anyone stumbles in here & doesn't want their analysys of the original post swayed:


SB has Qd Jh (straight, queen high). Pretty easy read here.
Hero has Js Td (full house, tens full of jacks).
CO has 4s 8s (two pair, tens and eights). I couldn't believe this one--what did he think, he was going to steal this pot on a bluff with the way everyone had been betting??
Button has 9s 9d (full house, nines full of tens). I saw one person above guess at 99, but I didn't see this one coming. I had Button pegged on an overpair the entire hand.
Outcome: Hero wins 36.50 BB.

bernie · #9 12-11-2004, 07:13 PM

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Button is crazy aggressive preflop & has been raising hands that I wouldn't even play.

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Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with JTo.
2 folds, Hero calls,

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The table in general had been very loose.

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Ill say it is.

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Would you have even played JTo here?

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no.

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I usually don't, but the table was loose & I was borderline tilting.

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Great reason to keep on playing. Your opponents will appreciate it.

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Regardless of 1 above, where do you fold this hand? Common sense was screaming at me to fold on the turn,

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I know we're getting close to the punchline of this joke somewhere. What kind of flop were you looking for when you limped into a likely raise preflop with JTo?

You may want to check your common sense meter while you're at it.

b

bernie · #10 12-11-2004, 07:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you have even played JTo here? I usually don't, but the table was loose [ QUOTE ]
This is an acceptable justification

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No it's not. You forget that there's a 'crazy' aggressive raiser behind him?

b