Bad play with JJ?

ghostface · #1 12-10-2004, 09:45 PM

Party 10+1 NLHE Level 1 Blinds 10/15

I'm dealt J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in SB

2 LP limpers, I call, BB checks

Flop (60): J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
I check, BB checks, CO bets 125, Button calls, I push

Is this ok or did I screw up by not raising PF

stillnotking · #2 12-10-2004, 09:48 PM

This is always a tough one -- you probably have the best hand preflop, but you have the worst position postflop, so it will be hard to play if overcards hit. I think either calling or raising here is fine, in fact it's probably best to do some of both and keep 'em guessing. QQ or higher I would definitely raise.

Postflop, your play was fine.

Myst · #3 12-10-2004, 11:06 PM

Without position post-flop, its tough to raise JJ here. Frequently, I play JJ early in a tournament for set value anyway.

Post-flop, your play was perfect. It disgusies your hand, and often times youll have any Queen + any draw calling right behind you, esp in the 10+1. And even if they do fold, you won a sizable pot (310 chips), which is a significant addition to your stack.

So either way, youre ahead.

betgo · #4 12-11-2004, 01:30 AM

I think you have to raise preflop at the limpers, even though you don't have position. JJ is the 5th best hand you can have and the limpers don't figure to have much.

I think checking is fine, but I am not crazy about the push. It is true there are possible draws out there, but a set is a strong hand, and I would try to get action. Just calling makes it too easy on draws, and the action could dry up on the turn if they are on draws or a dangerous looking card hits. Therefore, I would make a smaller reraise and push on the turn.

eastbay · #5 12-11-2004, 01:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you have to raise preflop at the limpers, even though you don't have position. JJ is the 5th best hand you can have and the limpers don't figure to have much.

I think checking is fine, but I am not crazy about the push. It is true there are possible draws out there, but a set is a strong hand, and I would try to get action. Just calling makes it too easy on draws, and the action could dry up on the turn if they are on draws or a dangerous looking card hits. Therefore, I would make a smaller reraise and push on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. I agree with this line.

eastbay

adanthar · #6 12-11-2004, 01:43 AM

Raising preflop is a must, but I don't like the smaller reraise for one reason: CO bet 2x the pot and the button called him.

Unless somebody's got misplayed queens you're ahead right now *and* at least one, probably both, will call their TP/draw all in on the flop. Moreover, anything other than a minimum raise leaves you pot committed on the turn.

So I just push and let QJ autocall his 2 outs. Whether the flush (hopefully not straight flush) draw follows is up to him but I don't horribly mind a fold (huge pot) or a call either way.

If this had been a pot sized bet I would like a raise/turn push more.

eastbay · #7 12-11-2004, 01:47 AM

Pot committed? What kind of nonsense is that. Of course you're going all the way here.

eastbay

adanthar · #8 12-11-2004, 01:51 AM

Purely as a hypothetical given the way the hand has played so far, if you raise to, say, 400, the two of them call, and the turn is the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] you are a 4:1 dog to at least one of them 90% of the time (maybe 80% if it's the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]).

Like I said, I push the flop because they'll call anyway but the added complication is some of those turn cards reeeaaalllly suck.

eastbay · #9 12-11-2004, 02:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Purely as a hypothetical given the way the hand has played so far, if you raise to, say, 400, the two of them call, and the turn is the T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] you are a 4:1 dog to at least one of them 90% of the time (maybe 80% if it's the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]).

Like I said, I push the flop because they'll call anyway but the added complication is some of those turn cards reeeaaalllly suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you suggesting you would fold?

eastbay

adanthar · #10 12-11-2004, 01:32 PM

Nope. That's why the term is 'pot committed'.

With deeper stacks (say this was an MTT and everyone had 3K with the same blinds), yes, a turn card like that would make me check and possibly fold depending on the action.

But this whole line is overly complicated. One guy overbet the pot, another guy called, and I have a set = push.