Reevaluating a simple part of my game

[pshreck]

Limp or fold???

***** Hand History for Game 1271030533 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Blinds(25/50) -
Table Table 13972 (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 5: LkyLadyB ( $415 )
Seat 6: rjbmemphis ( $1245 )
Seat 3: HERO ( $800 )
Seat 10: kelster ( $635 )
Seat 9: Wamblamee ( $1110 )
Seat 1: Multiplier ( $2250 )
Seat 8: trmdl ( $1020 )
Seat 4: allboys54474 ( $525 )
Trny:7722374 Level:3
Blinds(25/50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Kc Qd ]
Wamblamee folds.
kelster calls [50].
Multiplier folds.
HERO ??

I think this question is simple, yet I can't really figure out what I want to do here.

[jcm4ccc]

8-handed, so it seems a pretty easy fold to me. 50 chips is not insignificant at this point. Limp 2 or 3 times with marginal hands, and you're swimming with the other fishes.

If you do decide to limp, go in with a plan if you get top pair on the flop. That's the most likely way the flop will hit your hand, and the most difficult to play.

You can:

Check/fold
Raise/fold to reraise
Raise/call a reraise

etc etc etc

Many ways to play it, many ways to lose a significant amount of your chips. Difficult to win a large amount of chips, because you're not going to want to commit yourself to top pair. That's why I would fold.

[UMTerp]

Very easy fold.

[Irieguy]

KQ is profitable for a limp if certain conditions are present:

1. Late position
2. A table where several players will limp with weaker kings and queens
3. Little risk of being raised by the blinds
4. Limping will cost less than 10% of your stack, and a player hitting top pair with weaker King or Queen will be willing to pay off their whole stack.

These conditions are frequently present, so limping will often be worth it. The reason why I suspect that you are having difficulty with this decision is because of the risk of getting raised by the blinds. This is a key factor... if they are at all tricky or aggressive, these kinds of plays are best left in the muck.

I would say that limping is profitable here more times than not, but it takes a pretty sophisticated level of judgement to be able to tell when. Folding everytime is better than limping everytime... but you will be giving something up if you routinely fold. KJ is one of SNG players' most favorite hands to go broke with... you should abide from time to time and help them go broke.

Irieguy

[morgan180]

This is a great point. In the early levels I am throwing away a lot of AJ/AT/KQ pockets because they're so easy to go broke on. Because its early I have no idea the guy is going to turn over K9 to beat someone's K6.

Am I giving up too many opportunities to take a lot of chips, or am I keeping myself from busting out in 8th/9th/10th on a regular basis?

My biggest problem with these hands is:

1. i limp
2. hit top pair
3. have an all-in or huge raise in front of me -- OR -- make a pot size bet and have a huge raise behind me
4. fold with less chips and scratching my head about what just happened and if i was too weak.

i think that these types of situations come up much more frequently then how to play with big pocket pairs or ace king, but there doesn't seem to be a ton of discussion about them.

How about other broadway holdings? Anyone play these? and how/when/and what are you looking to hit with them, straight draws, flush draws or top pairs??

[Sidekick]

It sounds like waffling, but it depends on how I've seen the other players play so far.

If I've seen a number of the other players play crap hands (e.g. Kxo, Qxo, etc.) then I will probably limp here. If I haven't seen anyone playing crappy hands it is an easy fold.

Some of my SnGs are quite tight, while in others half the players seem drunk and can't read the board. At this point I would have some idea of how table is playing and would base my decision accordingly.

[royaltrux]

I'm a newbie who plays and studies mostly limit hold-em so excuse my ignorance. You guys are serious about folding KQo with no aggression/raise present? I know limit is a totally different animal but a raise would be a no-brainer in this situation in limit.

I just can't fathom not limping in with KQ and none of the no limit books I've read (super system, helmuth's books and Sklansky's hold em for beginner and advanced) would ever advise this.

Even pocket rockets get cracked. You have to play the premium hands when the situation is correct and this seems perfect for a raise. Like I said though, maybe I'm wrong, limit is my strong suit and I am here to learn.

Thanks for any input.

[jcm4ccc]

[ QUOTE ]
I know limit is a totally different animal.


[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Here's why.

Let's say you have KQo, and the person behind you has AQo.

Here's the hand in limit:

preflop: You raise 30 chips, Opponent raises to 60 chips, you call.

flop: 2c 6c Qh. You raise 30 chips, opponents raises 60 chips. You call.

Turn: 9h. You check, opponent raises 60 chips, you call.
River: 8s. You check, opponent raises 60 chips, you call.

I don't really know if that's how you would play it in limit, but the point is that you only lost 240 chips.


Here's how it goes in NL:

You limp with 30 chips. Your opponent limps with 30 chips. Another opponent limps with 30 chips, SB completes, BB completes.

flop: 2c 6c Qh. You make a pot-sized bet of 150 chips. Opponent smooth calls you. You think he's working on a flush draw.

Turn: 9h. Pot is now 450. You make a bet of 350, thinking your opponent is working on a flush draw. He goes all-in. Now what do you do? Fold and give away the 530 chips you already bet? Call the all-in when you don't have the top kicker? Or berate yourself for limping with the damned KQo when you were out of position?

[housenuts]

the difference between limit and no limit is the same as the difference between diarrhea and constipation. they are completely different.

i don't even know if you'd want to limp with this hand in the same limit tourney situation. in a ring game you would, but tourney situations dictate alot more than the cards do. with no limit you're at risk of going broke at any point, and KQ is not a solid enough hand to risk that with. you are dominated by too many hands.

[esbesb]

I think you guys are playing too tight, folding KQ in middle position in an eight handed game with the blinds worth taking and NO STRENGTH shown before you.

I'd probably raise to 150.