Aggression Recomended in paul kammens book

[joeg]

Hi everyone

I recently decided to add stud to my selection of games played and have started by reading 'How to beat low limit 7 card stud' by Paul Kammen, on the whole I am impressed with the book but there is on bit of advice that is repeated that I think is wrong. Basically in the discussion of starting hands he advises to raise with big pairs unless you are certain that your opponents are so loose they will call, if your opponents are making a mistake by calling surely it is even more of a reason to raise, even though it wont reduce the field or am I missing something stratgicaly different between stud and holdem? This advice of only raising reasonably strong hands when there is a good chance your opponents will fold is repeated on later streets of the hand, is this a good strategy in stud?

[Nick_Foxx]

i haven't read the book you mention, but a lot of hands in stud play better heads up or 3-way than multi-way, and the only way to accomplish that is with a raise

in fact, if you know that your raise will be unsuccessful in knocking people out, then there are some instances you would not play that hand at all - an example is say a split small pair with an overcard kicker

as for big pairs, they don't hold up well in multi-way pots (believe me, i know this to be painfully true), so if no one's folding, there's no point in building a big pot for someone else... perhaps the author is just suggesting limping along and folding if you don't improve by 5th, which i guess isn't the worse strategy in the world... my general course of action, however, is to jam with these hands early because you have to do everything in your power to thin the field (see chip reese's section in super/system)

mike

[Dharzhak]

[ QUOTE ]
Basically in the discussion of starting hands he advises to raise with big pairs unless you are certain that your opponents are so loose they will call, if your opponents are making a mistake by calling surely it is even more of a reason to raise, even though it wont reduce the field or am I missing something stratgicaly different between stud and holdem?

[/ QUOTE ]

Stud and Hold Em are two entirely different games.

Here's the thing. In stud, pairs do better heads up. If you don't think you can thin the field to no more than 3 players, you probably shouldn't raise and may consider folding if there are over cards out there, say you have split Jacks and there's a Queen and an Ace showing in front of others.

Flush & straight draws do better against multiple players, so you would rarely raise them. One caveat, straight draws can be a killer since you have less outs than a flush draw and will lose to a flush. Gut shots are absolute death and you should chase only if you're also have a potentially live flush or a decent pair.

Most of this is covered in 7 Card Stud for Advanced Players by Sklansky and gang. It's pretty much required reading for the serious stud player.

Regards,
Noal

[MRBAA]

Sigh. Original poster, you are of course right. You raise your big pairs both for value and to KO people. Kammens book isn't very good -- Roy West's is much better for beginners. What is different about stud is that everyone has their own board. So if you have lots of players in, chances are a couple of them have live draws to beat you. Depending on how you read their hands, you may have to slow down or even fold your big pair on fifth street. Hey, even in hold'em you sometimes have to fold aces on the turn when the board gets nasty and there's lots of action. That doesn't mean you aren't right to pound that money in when you are ahead -- as you almost certainly are with a big pair early.

[nate1729]

Raise, raise, raise, unless one or both of your trip cards are dead, in which case you have something to think about. Of course, if you can't thin the field, you shouldn't raise to thin the field*... but if you can handle the variance, your pot equity is so good you can raise for value, and if you can't handle the variance, find another game. Good luck, and read 7CSFAP already.

--Nate


*Andy B has a few posts recently dealing with this stuff

[SA125]

Stud is about live cards. The odds of improving your hand drops more than you'd think when some of your cards are out and, with 5 betting rounds, that can be costly. Putting a number on the odds of your draw hitting is vastly different in stud than holdem. Chasing the big pots like you can do in holdem isn't apples to apples.

Stud and holdem are the same when it comes to taking advantage of your edge.

So if your big pairs are live, the only reason not to raise them early is for deception. Otherwise, solid play with good cards get the money.

[Runner Runner]

I think that there are situations where you might want to just call with a big pair (Tens to Kings) on 3rd when you are one of the last callers and several players have limped in. You may be able to knock some players out on 4th by checkraising and making them pay 2 to stay in and draw when the pot is small. I would be more inclined to try this if my cards were less live, and more inclined to raise the big pair on 3rd if my cards were live.