Help with Straight Draws

Kevin · #1 11-27-2004, 04:21 AM

Hello,
It has been a tough last 25-30,000 hands. I am break even to barely up during this time and I am inventing new ways to lose. During this time, I have done a very thorough reread of SSH, replayed thousands of hands, and scoured this forum.

I have taken a lot of advice from this forum about ramming nut flush draws on multi-way flops. During the past couple of weeks, I have had similar opportunities with straight draws.

In the spirit the small stakes forum etiquette, I will post 3 or 4 of these hands in the reply mode. I really need to break out of this funk so harsh and brutal criticism is welcome and appreciated.

Thank you,
Kevin

Hand 1)

Questions:
1.) I am now second guessing everything. Call the flop? Call the 3 Bet? Cap?
2.) River, 3 Bet?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero raises, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, Hero caps, MP3 calls, CO calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (12.66 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO raises, UTG+1 calls, Hero 3-bets, MP3 calls, CO caps, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

River: (28.66 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 36.66 BB
Main Pot: 36.66 BB, between Hero, MP3, CO and UTG+1.

ghostface · #2 11-27-2004, 04:24 AM

You played that hand great. It just looks like you got the rigged side of Party again. I wish I could find a 3/6 table like that. 36.66 BB pot [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]!

Keep jamming them like that and you'll be a winning player. Next hand.

Kevin · #3 11-27-2004, 04:26 AM

Hand 2)
Question 1) Call the flop raise or 3 bet?
Question 2) River action, check call?, bet, call a raise?, bet reraise?

Thanks
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG+2 raises, 3 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, CO raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG+2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.66 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 calls, CO folds.

River: (10.66 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+2 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14.66 BB
Main Pot: 14.66 BB, between UTG+2 and Hero.

Kevin · #4 11-27-2004, 04:31 AM

Hand 3)
Questions:
1) Flop, Call, 3 bet? Is this standard as the pot grows or too aggressive?
2) River, Fear the back door Flush Draw or was it ok to bet out?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, Hero 3-bets, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (13 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (17 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, CO raises, Button calls, SB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23 BB
Main Pot: 23 BB, between CO, Button and Hero.

ChessMan · #5 11-27-2004, 05:28 AM

I understand jamming the flop. Is he correct to jam the turn too because of the two overcards? If only the straight is good enough to win then jamming the turn can't be correct because he's getting 4.75:1 with only 3 opponents.

However, if the two overcards are good 1/2 the time they're an extra 3 outs, for 11 outs total. 11 outs must be close to 3:1 so jamming is break even with three opponents. Do I understand correctly?

Nick C · #6 11-27-2004, 06:14 AM

Hero hit the nut straight on the turn.

If he hadn't, then I don't think he should jam the turn on a draw (unless the turn brough him a flush draw to go with the OESD). With the heavy flop action, the overcard outs are less likely to be good. If he has 3 opponents who won't fold, he needs 12 outs for the turn bets to be to his immediate benefit (12 outs would give him a 12-to-34 shot). Favorable situations for pumping draws on the turn don't come up nearly as often as favorable situations for pumping draws on the flop.

Nick C · #7 11-27-2004, 06:47 AM

I think the flop 3-bet is fine. It's not quite for value with just your straight draw (the straight will come in by the river 31.5 percent of the time), but you also have overcards that may be good and a backdoor flush. You're making UTG+2 call two cold, but you might gain some benefit if he folds. For instance, if he decided to release KJs (unlikely), then you've picked up outs for your jacks if CO raised with, say, TPTK (and getting counterfeited on the river would no longer be a problem). Also, if UTG+2 folds something like AK, a top pair hand you pick up on the turn will be less vulnerable, if that top pair puts you in the lead.

On the river, I would bet. Then I would just call the raise. I think UTG+2 has at least a straight (unless he's making a play, in which case he may not call the 3-bet), and I'm worried he has something like A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] instead. I guess he might raise the river and call a 3-bet with, say, QQ, but I would just call his raise here.

Nick C · #8 11-27-2004, 07:05 AM

I think calling initially on the flop is best. There's a good chance SB has top pair, and if he doesn't someone else might, and MP3 could have an overpair (or even a set, which would make me very vulnerable to a redraw if I hit, though I'm not worried too much about that yet). So I'm not counting on picking up pair outs for my jack or ten, and I'd like to keep people in with my OESD. Driving people out would make me less vulnerable to redraws if I hit my straight on the turn (if someone folded, say, a gutshot and backdoor flush they would otherwise stay in with on the flop), but I would just call.

I like the 3-bet, once the action gets back to you with everyone still in. (However, since two players folded instead of calling two cold, it does look like calling might've gotten the same amount of money in.)

I would bet out on the river. CO may have something like A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], but I don't let the possibility of a backdoor flush stop me from betting here.

Nick C · #9 11-27-2004, 07:56 AM

Hmm. It's too late to edit, but I think CO is much more likely to have A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (which is what I meant to type) than A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

In any event, though, I don't start worrying about that until I get raised.

Louie Landale · #10 11-27-2004, 11:29 AM

No brainer caps on flop and turn.

On the river it sure looks like a 3-way chop. If you are wrong you'll get 4-bet. So you are risking 2BB to win 1/3bb. No brainer don't cap it.

- Louie