ugh, I hate this hand, somone tell me if I'm stooopid

[Alobar]

No big reads on anyone involved in this hand. No one has stood out as being either good, or horrible. Table as a whole is loose without much aggresion

party 5/10 6 max, 6 handed

Hero is button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, CO raises, Hero 3 bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (13sb 4 handed) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
checked to the CO who bets, I call, BB calls, UTG calls

Turn: (9BB 4 peeps) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
BB bets $5(all in), UTG calls, CO calls, I raise, all call

River(14BB 4 peeps) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] yuck
checked to me and I bet, everyone calls

Obviously I'm most interested in my flop play. Is this an example of a "wait till the turn" to raise hand? Or should I have raised anyway, hoping to fold a gutshot (not likely they fold, and I've also got 2 of the jacks). I could have maybe folded an unpaired ace I suppose.

Everyone bets this river right?

[Bad Beat Coming]

I raise the flop here, to try to keep out people with overcards (like, um, a Q) from calling, and minimize the people seeing the turn that can beat you.

[element00]

play the flop more aggressively

[Guido]

Very easy flop raise. Why give trash like K4o good odds to call? There are flush and straight draws all over the place. I would say this is one of the worst flops to wait.

Guido

[Huskiez]

I'll take a stab at this.

I think you played it well. I think this is one of those examples where you should wait until the turn for a couple of reasons.

There are a lot of scare cards that could come. If you're faced with aggression on a scare card, you can just fold pretty safely.

You'll be able to protect your hand much better on the turn, just like you were saying. Ideally it would be checked to CO again, you raise, and now those draws can't call without terrible odds. Instead BB bet out and everyone was able to stay in.

I think I bet this river, grudgingly. Not being check raised is a good sign. If it were an offsuit queen I'd be much more inclined to bet.

My guess will be that you took the sidepot, and the BB had 77, and would have folded if you raised the flop.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Very easy flop raise. Why give trash like K4o good odds to call? There are flush and straight draws all over the place. I would say this is one of the worst flops to wait.

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]

with it being 3 bet preflop I figured it much less likely for K4o to even be in the hand. And if he is bad enough to be in this hand, he is calling the 2 cold on the flop (and has the odds to do so).

[DrGutshot]

I agree raise the flop.

However - what do you do when you have AK or AQ here, still an easy flop raise to try to clean up your outs? or do you flatcall planning on folding the turn unimproved?

-DrG

[GFunk911]

Sorry, but this is an embarrassingly easy flop raise. You got the perfect situation, everyone checking to the CO who then bet. This allowed you to raise and charge people the maximum price to see the turn. There are (after the CO bet) 14 SB in the pot, and you have 4 people seeing a flop that was 3-bet preflop, but you don't put anyone on a pp higher than jacks. The odds are that at, on average, two of your overcards are out in opponent's hands, plus there are straight and flush draws. With 14 SB you must raise and maximize your chances to take down the pot (credit to Ed Miller, who I am shamelessly ripping off).

[ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of scare cards that could come. If you're faced with aggression on a scare card, you can just fold pretty safely.


[/ QUOTE ]

Let's talk about scare cards.
12 Overcards
3 Tens
3 Nines

Slightly less scary cards
8 Other Hearts
1 Non-Heart Jack
3 Non-Heart Eights

And the non-scary (so they don't really count as scare cards) but still notable
2 Non-Heart Fours
3 Non-Heart Sevens
3 Non-Heart Sixes


I count 15 very scary cards, 12 somewhat scary cards, and 8 non scary but possibly draw completing cards. That's (counting the 3rd category as 1/4 of an out each) 29 cards out of 47 remaining. I did this very quickly so I may be off by one or two. TWENTY NINE SCARE CARDS!!!!!!!!! And you don't want to raise the flop?

You wait to raise the turn on (relatively) unscary boards in (relatively) smaller pots, not with vulnerable hands in multiway, large pots.

[Alobar]

All of that I think is more reason to wait till the turn to raise. The turn card is likely to drastically change my equity. And Im not giving anyone incorrect odds to call 2 cold on the flop. I will also be giving them all correct odds to call on the turn. If none of the draws hit on the turn, I can then (hopefully) face everyone to call 2 cold and charge them the maximum or force them to make a mistake.

I was semi unsure about my play which is why I posted it, but the more I think about it, the more I think I was right. Which sucks because obviously everyone else thinks it was wrong, and it wasn't even close. So I dunno where that leaves me, heh.

[joker122]

[ QUOTE ]
There are flush and straight draws all over the place.

[/ QUOTE ]

But this is a reason you would wait.

edit - i wouldn't wait here though, simply because gutshots don't have odds to call 2 bets.