ATs UTG - bad bad turn check?

Fiddler · #1 11-16-2004, 05:38 PM

1/2 6-max at Absolute.

BB has a VP$IP over 50% and a PFR under 3%, limps with AK etc. He is not very aggressive after the flop and if he 3-bets he probably has something better than TPTK. Button has a VP$IP over 40% and has some strange aversion to raising pre-flop but doesn't mind a bluff raise once in a while after the flop.

I raise UTG with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], folded to button who calls, SB folds and BB calls.

Flop: Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB bets, I raise, button and BB call.

Turn: Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I check and button checks.

River: 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

BB checks, I check, button bets, BB calls and I call.

Should I have betted the turn? I didn't bet because I didn't want to be raised by button but except for an unlikely queen I am ahead of most hands except pocket pairs and anyone with a 6 and a check is giving them both a free chance to improve. After the turn I felt it was more prudent to check-call. Bleh.

Say I had betted the turn, button raised and BB folded. What is the play then? Since the button bluffs now and again I call down no matter what comes on the river?

Alobar · #2 11-16-2004, 06:59 PM

The BB bet on the flop means something, there are no draws, so more than likely he at the least has a hand that beats you. The button calling 2 cold also isn't very encouraging.

I check the turn because if I'm not drawing dead, im drawing at best to 6 outs. Throw in the fact that I don't know how to handle a button raise and its even easier.

I also don't overcall this river.

Fiddler · #3 11-17-2004, 03:38 AM

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I also don't overcall this river.

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I agree that it doesn't look too good and against unknowns I would probably not do it but I don't feel so bad about it against those two players. It got checked around on the turn and the river bet comes from button who likes to take stabs and bluff... and I don't feel that the flop bet by BB means so much. I know I wrote he isn't very aggressive post-flop without a hand but he is not afraid of taking a stab at the pot if he is holding an ace.

maxpowers21 · #4 11-17-2004, 04:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The BB bet on the flop means something, there are no draws, so more than likely he at the least has a hand that beats you. The button calling 2 cold also isn't very encouraging.

I check the turn because if I'm not drawing dead, im drawing at best to 6 outs. Throw in the fact that I don't know how to handle a button raise and its even easier.

I also don't overcall this river.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said.
Also note that if it were heads up on the turn I would bet out and then check down the river unimproved if called on the turn. And I don't overcall with ace high unless i have a very good reason to think that the overcaller is a complete retard.

j0wlev · #5 11-17-2004, 06:26 AM

I think the BB has a 6. I wanna put him on A6o. When you raised his bet, he was fearful you had QJs, KQs, or AQ. The third Q came and he is still shy about his 6. The BB is not getting out of this hand, he's checking and calling to the river.

He led into the pre-flop bettor, a passive opponent doing this has to tell you to give him credit for more than what your holding. I don't see the nature of your raise. You hit nothing on the flop, only a runner runner draw.

Fiddler · #6 11-17-2004, 07:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the BB has a 6. I wanna put him on A6o. When you raised his bet, he was fearful you had QJs, KQs, or AQ. The third Q came and he is still shy about his 6. The BB is not getting out of this hand, he's checking and calling to the river.

He led into the pre-flop bettor, a passive opponent doing this has to tell you to give him credit for more than what your holding. I don't see the nature of your raise. You hit nothing on the flop, only a runner runner draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might be a bit passive but it is passive as in "not raising and 3-betting post-flop unless he has a hand", not passive like "never bets the flop to try and take it down". And he checked the river after getting it checked through on the turn. A single bet followed by two checks and a call and I'm supposed to believe he has a boat?

Fiddler · #7 11-17-2004, 07:27 AM

BB showed A4o, Button showed K9o and MHIG.

Thanks. Interesting opinions, at least for me. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I feel I misplayed the turn by not betting and you all thought it was a mistake to overcall the river. I disagree about the river call but I'm not sure whether I do it because I felt my read was accurate or because I won...