Easy folds?

[jrobb83]

Party 10/20

Hand 1

6 handed, no reads.

UTG limps, MP raises, CO cold calls, SB calls, I 3-bet in BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], UTG folds, the rest call.

Flop: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB checks, I bet, MP goes all-in for $4, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
SB checks, I bet, CO calls, SB calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

SB checks, I check planning to call, CO bets, SB check-raises, I fold.


Hand 2

Opponent is 54% vpip, 10% pfr, 1.80 aggr, 5 handed.

I raise UTG with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], MP folds, button 3-bets, SB folds, BB folds, I cap, button calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
I bet, button raises, I call.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

I check, button bets, I fold.

[balkii]

hand 1:
ouch thats tough. its look like you're beat but you probably didnt post this if you didnt fold the winner in a huge pot...i'll refrain from advice-giving there cause i'm not sure.

hand 2:

big pot
+ heads up
+ KK
--------------
go to showdown

[Scotch78]

Hand 1:

I wouldn't call this an easy fold. Most people would raise the turn with a four, so combined with his pre-flop cold call, I don't put the SB on a four. Did he catch a runner-runner full house? Possibly, but that's the kind of hand I think you'll just have to pay off. Given the action though, I wouldn't be too surprised to see the SB flip over 88. Not sure what would be best here, but I probably call.

Hand 2:

The board pairing means nothing; a 10% pre-flop raiser doesn't 3-bet with a five in his hand. If you believe he has the ace, I fold the flop. Otherwise I'm calling down. Folding the turn doesn't make much sense to me--with the backdoor flush draw, you have about 3 outs and 12-1 isn't enough to see the turn.

Scott

[jrobb83]

Of course Hand 1 turned out to be a bad fold, or I wouldn't have posted it. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img] SB showed 53s??? for a broken gutshot draw and CO showed the QQ he didn't put a single raise in anywhere with and took it down. Looking back at the hand I think my major mistake was checking the river. My thoughts were that I didn't want to have to put in two bets, but all sorts of worse hands would have called my bet here.

In hand 2, I called the flop raise because I had a decent semblance of outs, and I didn't want to be seen folding the flop for 1 bet after I had capped preflop. I'm surprised I was getting advice to call down to tell you the truth. Maybe I underestimate the LAGness of 10/20. The way I figured it was that I raised UTG, not stealing, was 3-bet by the button. I subsequently capped after raising UTG. Then after I capped, was raised by the button after an ace flopped. This to me signified great strength, so I folded.

[threepines]

Party 10-20 6 max w/no read I call down both of these hands. Would have bet the river in hand 1.

[Scotch78]

[ QUOTE ]
In hand 2, I called the flop raise because I had a decent semblance of outs

[/ QUOTE ]

Um . . . you were dominated with two outs and a runner-runner, if you think that is a good number of outs, please tell me your handle so I can mark you with the little fishy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Scott

[Fiddler]

[ QUOTE ]

Um . . . you were dominated with two outs and a runner-runner, if you think that is a good number of outs, please tell me your handle so I can mark you with the little fishy [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think his outs are two kings and a runner runner he actually has the correct odds to look at the turn, 12.5:1 after the flop raise. But counting the kings as full outs seems a bit optimistic.

[Scotch78]

Since he has the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I only see his set losing to AA, so I think both kings are clean.

Scott

[Fiddler]

I'm confused by what you mean by clean... because if you think they are clean the pot is large enough to look at the turn. I meant "not clean" as in can't be counted as full outs. Some portion of the time I'd think villain has AK or AA and it makes sense to count the kings as only partial outs since in one case villain has one and in the other you are drawing pretty much dead. If we discount the kings the pot isn't large enough.

Sorry, it is the nitpicking-out-counting-micro-limit-player in me. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Scotch78]

An out is any card that will improve your hand when you are behind. Thus, our hero has two of them. However, we want to win the hand, not just improve. A dirty out is one which will still lose even when it comes in. Spiking a king will give the hero a winning hand unless someone else holds AA, so his outs are clean enough to count as full ones IMO. While it would be bad for our hero if someone else has AK, that would mean having less outs, not having dirty outs. More importantly, without a very strong reason to put the villain on AK, this possibility should be ignored. That said, the pot is not offering the 22-1 odds necessary to see the turn. The 12.5-1 is his chance of improving by the river, and he only gets those odds if the turn is checked through.

Scott