1-5 Seven card stud question.

1-5 Seven Card stud with $1.00 forced bring-in.


After raising the bring-in with the "highest pair" either a Ace or King, I push (jam) this pair

(without improvement)with $5.00 bets until I see a paired door-card or a higher pair, if I have the highest board or it's checked to me, until seventh street.


Is this play appropriate? I would appreciate opinions, and hopefully Mr. Ray Zee will comment.


Thanks,


John L

headup mostly. multiway you slow down if the other hands develop badly for you.

most times the hand doesnt go like this though. you get check raises in or get bet into at some point.

Factors to consider on 3rd street: how live are your pair cards, ditto your kicker? What's your position? An early raise obviously is good to narrow the field, but if you're in late position and you there are already many callers you may hurt yourself by building too big a pot early on, making it right for people to draw against you on later streets. In a multiway pot with an unimproved big pair you are likely to become a dog.

Check-raises in 1-5 stud? That's a true rarity. If someone check-raises you, you can almost fold without looking at your opponents cards. He's got your big pair beat somehow. But, you won't be able to get a check-raise in because everone will be scared off by your 3rd street bet of $5. In Vegas, it is rare for anbody to raise on 3rd street-very rare.


It's even unlikely that you'll get bet into if you've been betting $5 since 3rd street. If you do, it's almost certain your opponent has Aces-up or better and probably at least a straight.

In Vegas, 3rd street raises are rare. I don't raise on 3rd street because the Vegas game has no antes. There is simply nothing in the pot to win.


When there is a 3rd street raise, especially a $5 raise, it is hardly ever called. How many callers do you typically get when you raise $5 on 3rd street?

I generally think it is a mistake to raise the bring in with these hands if there is no ante. Also I would not always continue to bet on fifth or sixth street if there are multiple callers. With only two other opponents I would continue to bet but with more than that you are better off just checking and checkraising if you get the opportunity of even folding depending on the action.


Pat

Third street: in a tight no-ante game, I usually raise to $3 if I'm first to act, to $4 if there's one limper, and to $6 if there are two or more limpers. I do this with almost any good hand, not just the premium pairs. In a looser game I just throw $6 in there.


If nobody wants to play with me, that's fine - I'm willing to pick up the bring-in and the odd $1 limper. I may lose some profit when I hold AA or KK, which isn't that often, but I'll make up for it by winning a lot more than I should with trash.


Also, frequent raising throws the nits off their game. Most of them think they have some god-given right to see four cards for $1, and it tilts them when there's someone at the table spoiling their party. They'll either leave, hopefully freeing up a seat for someone who came to play, or they'll start playing your game instead of theirs, and they won't be very good at it.


Anyway, with pairs, you don't want to get in multiway pots. So raise enough on third that you're keeping the pot 3-way at most, preferably 2-way. People who limp with big pairs here are just getting greedy and are begging to get run down. You're giving drawing hands potentially huge implied odds to bust your butt. Besides, it won't work against good players who are familiar with this common tactic.


On subsequent streets, whether to keep jamming depends to a great extent on whether you successfully thinned the field on third. If you got a lot of callers, you need to go to Plan B, which as Ray pointed out, is to check and hope somebody bets far enough behind you that you can check-raise and get some of the riff-raff out. If you wind up giving up a free card here it's usually not that big a deal because you probably needed one yourself - an unimproved big pair doesn't win very often in a multiway pot.


TRLS

so if he pairs his say dead door card you wouldnt ever checkraise him when he leads out. or you say he will never lead out since you raised on third street. then the game is so beatable it doesnt matter how you play.

I'm not saying that's the way I play 1-5 stud (or any stud). I jubiliantly raise or check-raise when I think the situation is right.


I'm saying that >95% of Vegas 1-5 stud players (1) won't check-raise you when you've shown so much strength (or check-raise at all). and (2) won't bet into you without a big hand when you've shown so much strength.


I assume they fear getting raised or 3-bet by somebody who could have a monster hand like rolled-up trips. It's very easy to take control of a hand in 1-5 stud. By the way, all you have to do is raise once in a hand to take control of it. You will always get checked to unless somebody has made something big. Even if you check behind, you will usually get checked to again. I've even had players who know me check to me because I called!


I played 1-5 stud in Vegas through most of the Summer (30+ hrs per week) before moving up to the 4-8 & 5-10 stud games and learning Hold'em. There were definitely stretches of weeks without seeing any of my opponents raise on 3rd street. There were also prolonged stretches without seeing anybody else check-raise. It just isn't done. It should be, of course, but it isn't.


The only problem beating Vegas 1-5 stud is the rake. I believe it's a max of $5 (maybe $4 but I don't think so) plus the $1 jackpot rake in every poker room except the Bellagio and Mirage (Flamingo is $0.50).

Regarding 3rd street with a big pair in a no-ante game, you guys are SO diametrically opposed (no raise vs a definite raise of varying size) that I hope you each explain your thinking a little further...