giving up early

[Steve Giufre]

I played hand a few weeks ago and discussed it with a very stong player, (Hiatus Over) and he really didnt like the line I took. I'm not so much much interested in how everybody feels about this particular hand, as I am hearing about how you guys feel about rasing preflop and coming out checking when the flop is ugly and it is not heads up. I have a feeling I check a lot more in these spots than most other players.

The hand-

15-30 Party, I have K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and open raise in the cutoff. I am cold called by a very average player on the button and a calling station in the SB.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

SB checks, I check, button bets, SB calls I fold.

That just one of those flops, IMO that somebody will almost always be around. Getting 6 1/2 I realize it may very well may be a mistake not putting in the bet on flop, and I will occationally improve on the turn some of the time I am behind. Also, since I probably never check a made hand there, my flop check brings up other problems, although its not as big of a deal on the internet because I wont need to vary my play as much.

So I guess the question is, is it a mistake to not autobet the flop in these three handed situations? Or is it OK to back when off when the board is really ugly and opponents have been pretty routinely taking one off on the flop? BTW, I would never check here were it heads up between me and the button, I more talking about these three and four handed situations when cordinated flops fall that I have missed completely.

[stoxtrader]

you likely have 6 outs to the best hand + bluffing equity. I think this is an easy bet even if there are lots of draws/redraws out.

[samdash]

This seems fine to me. These guys will probably check it down with you if they don't have mid pair or better.

[Turning Stone Pro]

Steve:

Intersting post. In this 3 handed situation you describe, without considering the texture of the flop, I bet the flop 80% of the time.

The problem with this flop is that all cards are in the playing zone, and are well coordinated, and could greatly assist a late position pre-flop cold-caller. This is one of those 20% situations were I would probably check here, and might muck to a bet from the button and a call from the blind.

If the flop was all little, or contained an A or J and small uncoordinated cards, this is a clear bet IMO 100% of the time.

I hate this flop: You can rest assured it helped someone, and you could be in real trouble if you "improve" on the turn.

Best Wishes,

Joe

[LarsVegas]

I am with you on this one Steve, and I strongly suspect this is one of the strenghts, not weaknesses, I have over other winning mid-limit ring-game limit players.

Against just two opponents, just the simple fact that you in this hand holds just King-high instead of AK/AQ also counts for a lot. Against two opponents, with position on one of them, I can see a case being made for betting AK/AQ, because you if for instance the button folds and the sb calls, you can often get to a showdown for just one more big bet if the turn and river blanks.

Against three opponents, I support you line no matter which overcard without a draw you hold.

lars

[joedot]

You have king high, and basically a crap hand at this point. Nothing wrong with playing this like you did and folding here. 6 to 1 isn't enough when you don't even know if your draws are live, and will probably lose in a showdown unimproved. Playing king high as a draw here is hit and pray poker. You hope to hit your longshot draw, and then pray it is good if you get so lucky as to hit it. That's not how I like ot play. The problem with betting is that with those cards, you are getting called here, and when you are, what are you going to do on the turn unimproved, keep bluffing? Now you've wasted 1 1/2 big bets on king high. Why not wait for a more advantageous situation. You are the better player, you will have a bigger edge later on. I don't like wasting chips, and that's what too many people do with total garbage, and KQ is total garbage on this flop.

[hockey1]

[ QUOTE ]
You have king high, and basically a crap hand at this point. Nothing wrong with playing this like you did and folding here. 6 to 1 isn't enough when you don't even know if your draws are live, and will probably lose in a showdown unimproved. Playing king high as a draw here is hit and pray poker. You hope to hit your longshot draw, and then pray it is good if you get so lucky as to hit it. That's not how I like ot play. The problem with betting is that with those cards, you are getting called here, and when you are, what are you going to do on the turn unimproved, keep bluffing? Now you've wasted 1 1/2 big bets on king high. Why not wait for a more advantageous situation. You are the better player, you will have a bigger edge later on. I don't like wasting chips, and that's what too many people do with total garbage, and KQ is total garbage on this flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very one dimensional thinking and will not result in winning poker. Winning a hand isn't just about what you have in your hand, it's about whether your hand is better than your opponents'; whether it will be on the river; or the likelihood you can get your opponents to fold, and at what price. In this situation you need to consider the likely range of hands of both of your opponents, the likely reactions to your bet, etc., etc. With only two poor opponents, neither of which has shown any strength whatseover, getting 6:1, and a button who is likely to bet anything if checked to (assuming he's like 80% of Party 15 players) including many hands worse than yours, I think betting the flop is probably the better play. Fold out Ax, charge the draws, maybe even fold out 2nd or 3rd pair, or maybe you're ahead and/or are drawing to as many as 6 outs. Betting may not be the play 100% of the time, and maybe not against certain opponents, but as a general rule, in the situation you described, it is.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
I am with you on this one Steve, and I strongly suspect this is one of the strenghts, not weaknesses, I have over other winning mid-limit ring-game limit players.

Against just two opponents, just the simple fact that you in this hand holds just King-high instead of AK/AQ also counts for a lot. Against two opponents, with position on one of them, I can see a case being made for betting AK/AQ, because you if for instance the button folds and the sb calls, you can often get to a showdown for just one more big bet if the turn and river blanks.

Against three opponents, I support you line no matter which overcard without a draw you hold.

lars

[/ QUOTE ]

Without getting into things too much, your post pretty much sums up how I feel about these situations. Even though I'm getting 6-1, I feel like I'll rarely ever take it down with a bet here, and I'll be checkraised by the SB or raised by the button a decent amount of the time with this flop.

The button preflop cold cald is probably worth discussing a little. I think the kind of guy who cold calls an open raise from the cutoff is normally the type to take one off with about anything here, and will probably look me up with a lot of his ace high hands. For that reason I feel a lot more comfortabl betting AK or AQ here because I dont have to worry about trying to blow K high past a calling station on the turn.

[Ulysses]

When I'm playing well and making the most money online, I check in spots like this all the time. I think this board is on the margin of being ragged enough to take down (or at least give it a shot and try to improve on the turn if you don't) vs. coordinated enough to give up. Of course, there's always the old standard issue to consider in these spots - how often is making your hand on the turn going to make your opponent(s) a better hand. One last point. If I've done this a little too much I'll check some made hands on the flop to get in a near-guaranteed check-raise.

[skp]

Diablo sums it up best.

One other point: It's an absolute boon if the button checks behind you. That gives you a much better read of his hand than if you were to bet and he then calls or even raises. This is particularly true if it's a 4 way pot with two guys behind you who also check. You are then hoping for the board to pair on the turn knowing that you only have the guy ahead of you to worry about.