Advice on Strategy Needed

I played a good amount of 5-10 stud this weekend (first time at 5-10) at Foxwoods. After the first two sessions, I was up around $225. I'm feeling pretty good so my friend & I have a nice steak dinner and go back to the tables around 9pm or so for one more session.


Well I proceeded to get my clock cleaned (losing a bit over $450 over the next few hours) on what I thought were mostly bad beats. I had a Ace-high straight on 6th street cracked by a flush on 7th street (with only two cards of the suit showing), Kings over 4s losing to Aces over 3s (with no Aces showing and pretty certain an Ace came up on 7th street). Then I go to another table and lose a straight to a full house on 7th street.


Then the kicker for the evening. BACK to BACK hands get dealt first wired Kings (turns into 3 Kings which loses to a full house on 7th) and then wired Aces (losing with Aces over eights to 3 Queens) to the SAME GUY. Basically the above hands alone cost me over $300.


I've learned (playing 1-5 at the Taj in AC) to play very tight (because the old-timers never can be bluffed or bullied out), but raise very aggressively to at least try to force people out or raise the pot if I think I have the best hand on the table at the time. My need for advice/strategy is as follows:


Is my game too aggressive for a 5-10 stud? I'm seriously starting to think that even if I have what I think is the best hand that I should only call bets (similar to the thread on this site about the guy who never raised) until 7th street and not bet or re-raise since people often seem to hang around. Or did I just run into a series of bad beats that doesn't normally happen and being aggressive is the best plan of attack?


I go to Vegas this weekend, so obviously any advice along these lines would be very timely...


Thanks in advance...

You should be aggressive, just be wary of river raises in low limit stud. People lose a lot of $ going for multiple bets on the river - low limit stud players rarely get very aggressive or tricky on the end.


Another tip is do not push tiny edges in multi-way pots on 3rd, and look to eliminate players when the pots get even modestly big. Beware of limping big pairs in small ante games.


Read 7 stud fap and super system 20 times each.


Dan Z.

Based on what you have written you were just very unlucky. However, small stud games, usually $10-$20 or smaller are more trapping games than the higher limits where you are frequently trying to knock players out.

If you don't bet when you think you have the best hand, you're throwing away profit.


You probably got unlucky on these hands. It's possible to have a long run of bad beats in stud, especially in loose games. But you might also have misread some of the situations, been too quick to put the opponents on hands you could beat, or made crying calls when you knew you were beat.


Frankly, it's not really possible to have an informed opinion of what your problems (if any) might be based on the very limited information. You might do better to post actual hands and how you played them, start to river, and let others critique them.


TRLS

I think we need to know how you played the hands to really know. Low limit stud can be exasperating and sometimes you just have to accept it. Funny, I was at foxwoods this weekend playing 10-20 and took what I thought were a bunch of bad beats. afterwards I realized I made significant errors on the hands, some of which will be posted here. perhaps you did the same.


Good luck in vegas. definitely play in the 4-8 games at the bellagio, which are stillgreat from what i understand. just keep playing selectively aggressive and read as much as you can. and post some of the hands!

pat

As a $1-3/$1/5 player preparing to move up to $5-10, your post was of great interest. Based on the situations you posted, it does sound like you took some bad beats. One comment I'd make (and Roy West says this in his book as well): even high straights are often not worth betting in multi-way action. The reason: too often you make your hand and lose to a flush. Also, I think in these low limit games the range of players is so mixed that you really do have to "play the player" as well as the cards. If you're against a calling station with a queen in the door and you've got kings, I'd bet it up until you see them pair their board (I might check the river). But if you're getting bet into by a normally timid player with not much showing, you have to put them on a strong hand. Many players in these games almost never bluff, so you are often right to just fold, especially when the pot is small. Also, in games where people will call a lot more then they'll bet or raise, you can just stop betting when your hand doesn't improve, many times you'll get a free card.

SOUNDS LIKE YOU DID TAKE SOME BAD BEATS. AN IMPLICATION OF WHAT MASON SAID IS THAT YOU MIGHT CONSIDER MOVING UP IN STAKES AS YOUR PLAY IMPROVES. I FIND HIGHER STAKES TO HAVE MORE PREDICTABLE PLAY WITH LESS CHASING. 5-10 AT FOXWOODS IS VERY HARD TO KNOCK PEOPLE OUT. TRY 10-20, OR 15-30 AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS.

I have started looking more closely at my river play. In the past, I would just bet if I thought I had the best hand, or a chance to drive a tight player of a weak two pair with my A's or K's


After playing quite a bit, rereading the various bibles on stud, I have started to believe that there are a lot of times where betting the river is a mistake, especially if you believe that the opponent is on a draw.


In these cases you wont get a call if they miss, but they raise you if they hit. You will probably feel compelled to call, and now you have lost 1 or 2 bets. (depending on whether they would have bet the river).


So I have tried very hard to do the second level thinking: "what does my opponent think I have?" If they think I have an A high straight, what hands will they call the river with? What hands will they bet if I check? Will they think that I missed my draw?


Going through this thought process has helped my game a great deal, since I play a lot less reflexively on the river. And that confuses the ohter players in the game (who I have logged 1000hrs with).


Bottom line, you suffered a number of bad beats.


BUT: Could the A's up have had aces and been ahead. Could the Full House have had trips, and been a little behind? Did the trip Q's pair his door card, so you should have been concerned.


There are a number of legitimate ways that each of these could have been Bad Beats. There are also a lot of ways that you might have missed information that would have helped you to figure out where you are.


I think I did something like this in my first trip from 1-5 to 5-10. I think I was playing my hand too much and not focusing on the other guys hands and what they thought I had. That was because in 1-5 it was hard to put some of the bad players on hands. They constantly had much worse holdings then I predicted, since they were playing crap. This led me to understress my assessment of their holdings, and focus on my hand.


I had to reverse this in 5-10, since the players started to play a lot more rationally, and were thinking a bit about what was going on.


Todd

Dear Stuart,


Other forum members have given excellent advice (as usual) on the correct technical adjustments you can make to improve your win rate.


I would like take a different approach, and offer an opinion on the interrelationship between the psychology of winning, and game strategy. When you are moving to a higher limit.


First: I was pleased to hear that you WON the very first time that you played at that higher limit. I am certain that that must have made you feel great. (And rightly so)


Then you played a second session (at this new higher limit) against players that you hadn’t played before, and you won again. Now if you weren’t feeling great by now, then you simply can’t love the game.


Now at this point I would have been saying to myself: (while I was having that well deserved “good steak dinner“)


“Not bad Doc, you moved to a higher limit, and you whipped them 2 sessions in a row”


“And right now you are 25 big bets ahead of the game”


“Those pros at 2+2 talk about averaging winning 2 big bets an hour” “ Sure this is a low limit game, but I still can deservedly feel proud about how much I have won at my new higher limit.”


“May be it’s time for me to be considering moving a significant amount of my playing time to this higher limit.”


BUT RIGHT NOW! TONIGHT!


“Here is the GREAT POINT, since I am only going to play one more session, I CAN NOT POSSIBLY LOOSE!!!.


At the end of the night, I shall have moved to a higher limit, and I am going to be feeling great since the very first time I played at this limit, I beat the game.


"And the next time that I play this limit I am going to play with confidence, since I have already won at this limit."


“It doesn‘t get much better than that”


“ The reason that I can’t loose is that, since I am 25 big bets ahead, and since a good player is going to average winning 12 big bets per 6 hour session, and since I REFUSE to let myself loose more in one session, than I typically would win in another session, I shall refuse to allow myself to loose more than 15 big bets.”(PERIOD)


“So no matter what happens, I’m going to be going home a winner, after playing 3 sessions for the first time, at this new higher limit.”


Stuart,When you are moving to a higher limit, I feel that it is important to pick your spots. (Playing in the most profitable games and only under the best conditions)


And I also feel that it is important to set limits on how much you will allow yourself to loose, during a sessions.


Later when you feel confident, that you have gotten this new limit beaten, in the long run. And you have a good read on your new opponents.


And after you have TAUGHT your new opponents, that you are a solid winning player, whose game they need to respect.(which will improve your probable win rate)


Then you can make adjustments in your game parameters.


But for now I would stick to the “old pro’s” policy of “don’t loose more money in one session, than you can typically win in an average session. Because if you can’t quit when you are winning you can never win !”


At this time I think there are two important things that you should do to do.


First: “BE RIGHTLY PROUD” of the fact that you played at a new higher limit and WON two out of three sessions. (That would not have happened unless you were probably playing a pretty solid game)


And make a commitment that you will play at this limit again. And that when you do, you will anticipate winning in the long run.


BUT FOR NOW in the future you won’t let your self-loose more in one session than you can typically win in your next session. (Reference: The mathematics of loosing*)


Second: Continue to review the excellent advice given by the other posters to your question. And consider making the appropriate modifications in your game plan.


And keep posting examples of the hands you play. 2+ 2 is an invaluable asset.


Most sincerely,


Doc AZ


Ps. fyi, Some time ago, I averaged playing 5/10 or 6/12 Stud 6 to 8 hours a day, 5 days a week for a year. And I have never lost $450 dollars, at those limits, during anyone session in my life.


(There are a dozen players, some 2+2 followers, that can document that.) If I have forgotten a time that I did and have misspoken I sincerely would appreciate one of them reminding me.


I can easily remember multiple times loosing $1,000 dollars and occasionally significantly more, at higher limits. (Often when I sincerely felt that I played near perfect games)


But I have never lost 45 big bets at $5/10 in any one session.


It is important that I qualify my statement, by including that I am NOT a professional player, consequently I am under no pressure to generate an income.


If I were, I am certain that it would be an entirely different story. Since professional players have to tolerate much wider variances in their win/loose rates, to maximize their long term profits.


And also, like all players, I have had negative streaks where I have lost day after day, after day.


But I set very rigid limits as to how much I will lose during any one session. And I feel that that helped me post 24 consecutive winning months in a row.


Also if I were willing to accept more loosing sessions, I am certain that I could generate more income.


But I HATE loosing. Honey says that it’s just because I haven’t had much experience at it.


Stuart,The only reason that I included this addendum was to show that setting loss limits, can be done. And that doing so, may increase,not necessarily decrease your long term won/loss rates.

Doc AZ

* Sections on the mathematics of winning and losing at poker “Cappelleti on OMAHA” Michael Cappelletti cr. 1990 (pgs 51-53 and 9-13)

another factor is that with many hands they do better as bluff catchers on the river. So you should sometimes check and call on the river against a bluffer with hands that you will bet against other players. At 5-10 there may not be many bluffers but it pays to know whe they are.


A short story that is somewhat on point: Once i was playing at mirage's 5-10 holdem game and there was a guy who would always bet the turn when there were two suited cards and everyone checked on the flop. I was with a friend and told him I was going to bluff raise the opponent on the turn when the opponent tried this play against me. When the time came I raised and the guy folded. There was over $80 in the pot. So it pays to know who bluffs and how to play against them.


Pat