Tough laydown (or am I an idiot?)

[Jonathan]

Do you lay this down or not?

Thanks,
Jonathan


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t50 (6 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB (t952)
Hero (t1475)
MP (t1675)
CO (t1825)
Button (t1543)
SB (t1530)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero calls t50, <font color="666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t50, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t200) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(4 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t150</font>, BB calls t150, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises to t500</font>, Button folds, SB calls t350, BB folds.

Turn: (t1350) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="blue">(2 players)</font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets t980 (All-In)</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t2330
<font color="green">Main Pot: t1350 (t1350), won by SB.</font>
<font color="green">Pot 2: t980 (t980), returned to SB.</font>

[2planka]

Why the small flop raise? You've got two other players in this pot and a live four flush on board. Push the flop to protect your hand. If the draw calls you that's fine. Even if the draw hits you still have a few boat outs.


Edit: Just noticed that your flop raise is a pot raise (not enough coffee this morning), so I really shouldn't call it a "small" raise per se. Still, I think you have to push here given two live players are yet to act.

[parappa]

I think I call here. SB's leadout on the flop makes me think that he's got AT and made two pair on the turn. Depends on the buy-in I think, but I don't think that it's standard play in the games I play to bet pot on a flush draw. The As came on the turn, so I can't put him on AT of spades, but I can put him on ATo. I think he's more likely to have two pair than spades, the pot is laying me like 7:5 and I have outs. I probably call and expect to see a turned two pair or a made flush.

[Unarmed]

Agreed.
Typical crappy low limit players don't pot their draws. (though I have seen 1/20th pot "blocking" bets) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] So this largely depends on the notes you have taken on SB.

[ChrisV]

No WAY. Call, call, call.

By the turn the pot is 1350 and you have invested 550 of your stack, leaving you with 402 (this was a mistake btw: push on the flop). If you call the final pot will be 2154. You're assuming SB has two spades - for simplicity assume neither of them is the Ts (he would surely have reraised on the flop). This leaves 52 - 2 - 2 - 4 is 44 unknown cards. 10 of those cards pair the board, so you win 10/44 * 2154 = 490 chips. Calling is positive chip EV even if he showed you the made flush. The distinct possibility that you are actually winning makes this a call by a huge margin.

[Unarmed]

He's hero, not BB [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ethan]

A pot-sized raise would be to 800, not 500. Pot is 200 to the flop, then +150, +150, +150 = a raise of 650. A push isn't entirely unreasonable, but it'd be a 2xpot raise.

Call the turn push.

[SmileyEH]

you're getting better than 2-1 on your call, and you have 10 outs to improve on the river if he indeed has the flush (unlikely).

Easy call.

-SmileyEH

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
you're getting better than 2-1 on your call, and you have 10 outs to improve on the river if he indeed has the flush (unlikely).

Easy call.


-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I agree. In my games a pot sized raise with a flush draw is quite common, but even so two pair is more likely.
And even if he has his flush, as several of you have pointed out, I am getting proper odds to call.

I'm not sure if all-in on the flop is theoretically better than a pot sized bet, but it certainly would have prevented me from making a serious mistake!

Thanks all for the input,

Jonathan

[Bigwig]

Yes, I agree with calling on the turn. But I also think you should have pushed on the flop. Remember, even though the pot says '500' a pot sized raise isn't '500' because there are bets out there. Which means your raise to 500 makes it a call of 350 into a pot of 1000, which prices in the draw. Your raise needed to be to 800, which is well more than half your stack. So, push.