Jacks Misplayed?

brokedickrooster · #1 10-12-2004, 08:31 AM

Live game. Final stages of a small tournament (five players left, top 2 get paid) and I am the BB with slightly better than middle stack. UTG limps (stack is only slightly larger than mine), next folds, Button Limps, SB Limps, I check with J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Flop comes 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB Checks. Table is loose and I don't want any flush draws sticking around so I bet 2.5 times the pot. Next calls, Button and SB fold. I put the caller squarely on 2 clubs. Turn is a K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and I push all in for a pot sized bet with my set. Opponent asks me if I have KJ and I tell him no, I have a set, he say "well, I'm on a draw, I call" and turns over the A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Needless to say the 10 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] falls on the river to give him the flush and bust me out.

My question is this. Should I have been resigned to the fact that he was goin to call me down with his draw and checked the turn to save some chips if he catches, or do I push all in knowing that he is going to call. I usually want to push in and get the call here but someone suggested I might have played it too aggressively. Any thought?

Unarmed · #2 10-12-2004, 08:49 AM

If you know your opponent is on a flush draw bet the maximum he will call or whatever amount gives him incorrect odds to call, whichever is higher.
And buy Theory of Poker [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

stripsqueez · #3 10-12-2004, 08:58 AM

i'm still struggling with the question

perhaps if i get it another question is a good answer

if you check the turn and he does too and the same river hits will you call his all-in bet ?

another good question - this chook banked his whole tourney on a crappy draw when he called your all in bet - seems he plays a broad ranging game - how sure can you be that he has a flush draw ?

i usually smile and laugh when they ask what i've got - stupid question indicating that they have no idea

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Unarmed · #4 10-12-2004, 09:08 AM

I think its less complex than that strip...
Look at the flop play. He bet 2.5x the pot to "get the draws out".

sbulger - you don't want the draws out. You want them to call so long as its incorrect for them to do so from a pot odds perspective. Your 2.5x flop bet is normally way too large, but worked perfectly in this case because he called it with a draw. If you are positive he's on a draw on the turn and will call any amount, push, and drop your car and house keys on the table too.

Basically, giving someone a free card when you're ahead and know they are drawing is never correct. (well I hate to say never, but I can't think of any situation)

brokedickrooster · #5 10-12-2004, 09:47 AM

I've read "The Theory of Poker". Is there a particular pasage you think I should pay particular attention to?

brokedickrooster · #6 10-12-2004, 09:49 AM

No. After his call on the flop, if I check the turn and the same river hits, I fold to his all in bet.

brokedickrooster · #7 10-12-2004, 09:53 AM

I don't figure he has any kind of overpair, or he would have been good for a raise preflop, same with AK, AQ, AJ (plus I have two of the J's). If he had hit a set holding a pair of deuces or fours, he reraises my bet after the flop.

brokedickrooster · #8 10-12-2004, 09:56 AM

So I guess the better play would have benn: A pot size bet on the flop and the turn so if he decides to call, still leaves me with chips when the river club falls?

The Yugoslavian · #9 10-12-2004, 09:56 AM

He is most likely referring to the Fundamental Theorem of Poker (FTOP) which more or less concludes that you profit from the mistakes of your opponent. Therefore, if you can get your opponent to make a horrible decision (such as calling your allin with really bad pot odds for his flush draw) then you profit from such a mistake.

Over the long run, your play is definitely +EV in almost any no limit tournament structure I can think of. You should be happy that he called -- it's players like him that allow you to play poker and have a good shot at a profit.

If you know all of this already then you are probably just looking for some confirmation that you made the right move. It seems like you played the turn perfectly (the flop you could have bet less, giving a flush draw incorrect odds - but if you thought there was a chance a flush draw would call, then it's probably a good overbet). Of course, I'd love to hear some sound arguments going the other way, I'm just not sure they exist.

The Yugoslavian · #10 10-12-2004, 09:59 AM

The edge you had going allin on the turn with your good read that he was on a flush draw is worth losing your chips over (and your house, car, etc perhaps -- although I think that is a bit of a joke).