Extreme liberals and guns ...

[natedogg]

All the radical leftists who compare Bush to Hitler and fear some kind of right-wing coup or right-wing takeover of our civil liberties should be changing their positions on state-enforced confiscation of guns right about now.

The one way to guarantee that Bush and his cronies never round you up and put you in a camp is to go out and buy a gun today. It's your civic duty!

What's one of the first things Hitler did to solidify power? Confiscate all the guns from the public.

What did the Japanese Samurai lords do when they felt their power base was slipping at the hands of an armed populace? Why, they confiscated all the guns.

Your hatred of gun ownership and your desire to see them all banned (you know who you are) will only hasten your doom at the hands of a vicious right wing regime that wants to send you off to "re=education" centers.

natedogg

[nothumb]

Hi natedogg,

You make a good point. It's a paradox in my life (and I just wrote a long post about it in NVG) - I'd rather live in a society with fewer guns, but I feel increasingly more inclined to own one given the way things are going.

However, my acknowledgement of this thread does not mean I accept the label of a 'liberal.' Extreme, maybe, but liberal... never! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

NT

[wacki]

NVG?

[wacki]

BTW, nothumb,

I'm glad you see the importance of the Right to bear Arms and why it was in the bill of rights. I don't think it will get so bad that civilians will need guns, but it's not a right you want to go away non the less. People, especially when in groups, change fast.

[nothumb]

Well, I don't necessarily read the Constitution that way, so don't jump to any conclusions. If you read my presidential platform a while back, it included forcing all gun owners to join a well-regulated militia. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In all seriousness, I think the right to bear arms and a fascination/obsession with guns are two different things. Our country is afflicted with the latter. I understand why people would want to have a gun (I don't, for the moment) but I think we have built this myth that carrying them around in public, in our cars, etc somehow makes us safer. This is not true in the vast majority of areas. This country has a serious, debilitating problem with gun crime. Look at how much it costs a year in hospital bills and insurance premiums - many, many times more than 'frivolous lawsuits' or other superficial concerns. For every gun fatality in this country (remember, over 40k every year) there are several non-fatal shootings (I forget the exact ratio now) that lead to thousands of dollars in medical costs. Not to mention the fact that people getting snuffed day in and day out is not the sign of a civilized country.

Personally, I can see why people want guns. I would prefer they own shotguns and rifles, not handguns, and that they think of them as a last line of defense or a method of procuring food - the purpose they served at the time our Constitution was written - and not as sporting equipment, essential personal accessories, collectors items or extensions of their very souls. But you can't dictate taste or desire.

NT

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
In all seriousness, I think the right to bear arms and a fascination/obsession with guns are two different things. Our country is afflicted with the latter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think "most" gun owners have a fanatical obsession with guns, but instead see it as an inherent constitutional right and valid tool for self-protection should dire circumstances arise. Painting the country's populace as being "afflicted" is an opinion (and an incorrect one IMO) although of course some individuals are true nuts (which goes for many other things besides gun too).

[ QUOTE ]
I understand why people would want to have a gun (I don't, for the moment) but I think we have built this myth that carrying them around in public, in our cars, etc somehow makes us safer. This is not true in the vast majority of areas.

[/ QUOTE ]

It always amazes me how anti-gun folks spout such statements as if they were received wisdom. I think the above statement of yours is simply wrong.

[natedogg]

[ QUOTE ]
I accept the label of a 'liberal.' Extreme, maybe, but liberal... never!

[/ QUOTE ]

nothumb, I would never presume to call you an extreme liberal!

Just don't call me a precocious 18 year old anymore... . haha!

On a more serious note, you do realize that all these folks you mention who should have guns (sportsmen, collectors, citizens who think it makes them safe) are NOT the ones committing the crimes with guns, right?

natedogg

[nef]

Not quite 40,000 as far as I can tell,unless there was a large spike last year or two. This includes accidents,homicide, suicide and "legal interventions." Note that the trend is downward even though both population and gun ownership are trending upward.

Consider washington DC, almost all guns including sporting guns and ammo, have been outlawed there since 1976, yet it has very high murder and crime rates.

Washington Post Article


1981 34050
1982 32957
1983 31099
1984 31331
1985 31566
1986 33373
1987 32895
1988 33989
1989 34776
1990 37155
1991 38317
1992 37776
1993 39595
1994 38505
1995 35957
1996 34040
1997 32436
1998 30708
1999 27726
2000 27657

You can use the query tool to come up with statistics.
Statistics, CDC

[lastchance]

I think the Second Amendment is stupid right now. Of course, you should always be afraid of a right or left wing takeover, but I do not see the use in having handguns, or shotguns here.

You could win a war with guns back in 1776, but right now, to win, IMHO, you need automatic rifles, and RPGs (to blow up tanks and helicopters), both of which I believe are illegal, correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, according to my reading of the Second Amendment, one should allow automatic rifles and RPGs to be legal to defend our basic civil rights against government trying to take over. I believe this is moronic.

[wacki]

I would like to see an army try and control over 365 million people who all have a rifle and are willing to use guerilla tactics. I don't think it could be done. The could kill everyone, but not control them.