Early aggression? 72o wild

[rachelwxm]

One play I have been thinking about for a while now, possibly observed a few times maybe at 30+ buying SNGs (don’t try that in 10 SNGs because they are filled with cs) is this:

Let’s say it’s very early stage or the first hand in 30+3 SNGs for simplicity. Blind 10/15. You are in sb w 72o. There are 4 limpers to you. The conventional wisdom is to get away as fast as you can with such hand. But maybe you can do something different today.

You bet the pot! [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Before you send me to mental hospital let me make my last argument. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

From limper’s perspective:
If I limp w AJ (AQ?) or 66-TT alike, I won’t call.
If I have JJ-KK I would raise 5bb myself. Limping is generally not a good idea.
If I have AA (KK?), of course I would reraise back or even all in.

And you know you don’t need to get much more than 50% probability to get everyone fold in order to be profitable even with 72o! Of course I assume you will give up when being reraised.

And this assumes that you are dead if you get called, which is not usually the case in reality since being aggressor certainly gives you some advantage PF.

Now if you think doing this w 72o is terrible, how about doing this w 8s?

Am I being totally off here or I am not aggressive enough to call raise at this level?

Any thoughts from experts?
[img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[luvrhino]

Even if that's successful in stealing, you get 85 chips, which, IMO, isn't worth the risk that early. I like maintaining a table image of being a tight-ass early, which makes later bluffs, when the blinds are 50/100 or greater, more effective.

As for having 72o in the SB at 10/15, i complete anyway because it's only 5 more chips. This may be at odds with being a tight-ass, but it's only 5 more chips to get 85 and you never know what you might flop. I don't know what the conventional wisdom on this is, but i figure the odds are pretty good.

[nuclear500]

I am by no means an expert, but this is my perception:

An AK or AQ or even AJ or any pair bigger then 99 will probably NOT fold and will call and you'll have to fold unless you hit the miracle flop, in which case since you're playing on Party it looks like, they will use every four letter word in the english and galactic language because how could you play 72o!??@#

[rachelwxm]

point taken, but I think there is a fine line to call raise too, right? With AK or JJ-AA why not raise yourself? I am not totaly sure if I will call w AQ or AJ (a A flop I am not sure if I am in the lead) or even 99-TT(I don't want to pay price for the set). The fact nobody raise PF means there is less likely someone has those raising hands, right? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[luvrhino]

A lot of people are Calling Stations, even with kickass hands. Or they might call your raise with 87s. Unless you have played with them a lot and know that they would probably fold, i wouldn't try it.

Just because you would behave logically, doesn't mean that your opponent will do so.

[betgo]

There are a lot of weak players who will limp in and then call a pot sized bet. The first round of a SMG is not a good time to steal.

[rachelwxm]

That's why it would probably never work at 10SNGs, but given the texture of 30+s I am not sure since it gets much tighter now.
at 10SNGs my all in PF push AK will be called by A7-AT and Qs will be called by 77-TT. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Cleveland Guy]

I think the play can work, but as another poster stated, why do it for the 85 chips? It really doesn't get you all that much compared to the risk that is out there. The other thing - you talk about being the aggressor, but you do it out of position.

I know this is a common move from the CO or Button, and the difference being after your raise you can either get the flop checked to you, or raise any bet ahead of you.

If you make this raise from the SB, and get called. Flop comes out K 7 4 r. Now what's your move? If you bet, and get raised, you can't really play back can you? You have 2nd pair, No kicker.

Now you have given up 150-200 chips on 72o. I think this will happen a lot more than the 85 you will win, and conversely will hurt you in the long run more.

[Cleveland Guy]

[ QUOTE ]
That's why it would probably never work at 10SNGs, but given the texture of 30+s I am not sure since it gets much tighter now.
at 10SNGs my all in PF push AK will be called by A7-AT and Qs will be called by 77-TT. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

I've played 5 and 10 SnG's that are very tight, and 20 and 30's that are very loose passive. I think this is what makes it bad in the first round. I agree in general a 30 is tighter than a 5, but it's not always the case.

You don't know the table's image yet, it only takes 1 or 2 loose fish out of the 10 to change the image of the table. and I don't think you have identified them yet.

[The Yugoslavian]

Isn't this a pretty small range of hands? If those are the only hands that call I'd say raising in the SB with 72o has to be +CEV.

The problem I would have with raising with 72o (although I haven't played many 30+3 SNGs) is that players even at that level on party will call with *tons* of hands unless you raise bigger than the pot. I think there is a good chance any suited or unsuited one or two gap cards, Ax, K6+, and possibly many other hands would call here. Basically anything but absolute junk.

In the early stages it seems that most party players want to call any bets that don't put their stack at risk as long as they have any two cards with 'potential.' And, if they hit top or middle pair on the flop or have an overcard or two, they are liable to then call a post flop bet. Hell, there are quite a few PP players who will call down your pot sized bets on every street because 'I thought you might be bluffing.'

However, what if you overbet the pot from the SB (nothing too ridiculous, but a raise to indicate you have AK or a decent to high pocket pair) and then *showed* your 27o. I've often thought about this to try and get your table on semi-tilt.