2/5 hand: QJs

[Khern]

Here's a hand I think I muffed up at The Palms a few days ago. I've been shopping it around for comments.

Reasonable player($800+) open raises to $20 from seat 3, LAG($800+) cold calls from 4, folded to me($380) on button with QdJd, I call. I suspect a mediocre player($80) in BB will call, and he does.

Flop: KQJ w/2 spades. pot: $80
Reasonable player bets $50, LAG calls, I make it $200.
Reasonable player folds, LAG pushes, I reluctantly call.


What did I do wrong?

-John

[AZK]

Your 200 bet forces you to call off the rest of your stack. Nothing you could really do, you had a decent hand in a multiway pot. Your short stack is aiming to get all in on a flop like this. What'd lag show?

[Khern]

LAG showed T9o for the low straight. I didn't improve.

After the hand, Reasonable player said he laid down top 2 and I'm inclined to believe him.

More specifically,
calling preflop is ok?
should I have bet a little less and folded to a reraise?
should I have pushed on the flop?

One guy I talked to who I tend to think of as a reasonable player, said that he likes a min-raise on the flop, but I think that's just asking the LAG to come over top anyway, and leaves you wondering if you're really beat.


-John

[GimmeDaWatch]

I dont think you were getting away from this one regardless of what you did unless a real scare card came on the turn. This is a pretty difficult hand b/c the PFR'r could also have easily flopped a bigger hand than yours but there's no way you want to call there b/c of all the draws, and once you raise you're utterly committed.

[lucas9000]

with the raise and call pf (even if the call was from a lag), you've probably got to think that the reasonable player has something good (reasonable player raising from ep), and with the cold call maybe the lag has a drawing hand or a small/medium pair. when that flop comes down, and with rp betting and lag calling again, i'd say one of them has to have a flush or straight draw, maybe with a pair (at least). lag's smooth call on the flop would give me pause though. if he had something like top pair and a straight draw (kt is a hand many lags would play), he would likely raise to get you two out or at least get heads with rp. his call reeks of "trap" though.

folding on the flop would definitely be tough to do. calling would be the worst though...you'd be giving straight and flush draws a cheap card, and still have little idea where you really are in the hand. i don't think pushing right away on the flop is good, because then you have no way to back out. i'd say it would be a tough fold, but when the lag pushed you might consider folding. it's a matter of how risk averse you are. if you want to take the chance that he doesn't have a bigger two pair, a set (unlikely given pf action), or a straight, then calling all in is fine. you might catch another q or j [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[schwza]

i'd fold pre-flop. unless you make a straight or two pair, you can't feel that secure in your hand. (and some two pairs have problems, as you saw...)

[TomCollins]

[ QUOTE ]
What did I do wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very simple. You forgot to make your full house. Don't feel bad, its a very common beginners mistake.

[Ghazban]

If its any consolation, I had a very similar hand (right down to roughly the same stack sizes relative to blinds) at Foxwoods last weekend and also failed to complete my full house after playing it the same way you did (though mine was T9s instead of QJs).

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Very simple. You forgot to make your full house. Don't feel bad, its a very common beginners mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]
You are ignoring the other clear mistake hero made. He should have tried to flop 4QJ instead of KQJ.

Seriously, that board is ridiculous. I wouldn't feel very good about bottom two pair there. You're actually behind a pair and a flush draw 2:3 (AsQs), flipping a coin with a pair and a straight draw (KhTh), a 1:4 dog against a made straight, and close to dead against a set. You are around 2:1 against a pair and a gutshot or a naked T (AK/K9/JT/etc), but the likelihood of those holdings have to be reduced, once it's re-raised back at you.

For what it's worth, if you are 100% sure opponent does not have a pocket pair, Poker stove says you have 41% equity against: AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, T9s, AKo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo-QTo, JTo, T9o, so yeah, you probably have to call the $160 once you raise $200 (but again, this 41% is generously lending no additional weighting towards hands that are more likely to be pushed, LAG or no).

I'm pretty sure someone will explain why I'm wrong, but I can see an arguement for just calling the flop and waiting for the turn. Yes, it risks the "free card", but the notable gain is that turning a blank will increase your equity in the pot a fair amount. If a scare card comes, I just go away, because I wasn't terribly happy about my hand to begin with.