Big Slick struggling as usual

StellarWind · #1 10-05-2004, 01:43 PM

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter
UTG is normal/passive. UTG+1 is loose/passive, a chaser, and prone to stupid plays. Don't know about Cutoff.

Preflop: Hero is BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks.

Turn: (6.75 BB) J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, ...

I Play 2 Ski · #2 10-05-2004, 02:04 PM

5 Outs to the nuts, 4 outs to 2nd nuts 5 outs to TPTK. I like the bet.

J.R. · #3 10-05-2004, 02:11 PM

I don't know if I like the flop check-raise attempt (if that's what you were up to), as its unlikely to get the two players in between to fold most of the hands you would like them to fold given the pot size and UTG+1's loose nature. I normally just bet the flop, there is a good chance I am best, I have overcards outs and the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

The turn bet is fine, you may still be ahead and at least 2 of your opponents aren't liekly to raise you with just a midling pair (not sur eif a flush is that probable), so you aren't too likely to get punished for your aggression if behind, may be ahead, and have outs is called. If you get called in all 3 spots you may have value in the bet, depending on the cleanliness and availability of your overcard outs.

I am not sure whether it matters much whether you bet the turn or check, as I am not to sure you have much "bluff" to this semi-bluff, not much value to this bet if its a value bet, and you aren't to likely to get raised by passive opponents so there isn't much downside to a bet. I feel a great deal of indifference, especially with respect to the turn play, do you have a strong feeling one way or another?

StellarWind · #4 10-05-2004, 02:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know if I like the flop check-raise attempt

[/ QUOTE ]
Right or wrong, I was just trying to avoid paying two bets to see the turn with overcards.

J.R. · #5 10-05-2004, 02:43 PM

So you just try to pick up the pot on the turn when everyone checks the flop, knowing you have outs if called/raised? I'd rather not pay 1 or 2 big bets to see the river with the nut flush draw and overcards, but...

You know from the flop passiveness that its is unlikely the turn will be raised, how much bite does the turn semi-bluff have, or how much value does it have when you are ahead? Enough to outweigh the times 1) it gets checked thru and you see the river for free or 2) the times the CO bets and you checkraise (if you are feeling frisky) and the CO can't beat nut no pair. I think so, but mostly from the value angle.

I like the turn bet, but if you had a read on the CO and were trying to check-raise him on the flop that would be super cool. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] (I have mad FPS today). But having no read, its not bad to check call the flop if you think a CO flop bet means pair, but I prefer betting, you have a nice hand.

MRBAA · #6 10-05-2004, 02:45 PM

I hate the check on the flop. The raiser could have a relatively weak hand. You just three bet preflop representing a big hand. Checking here tells everyone you have overcards, not a big pair. You've made the pot big enough to risk a bet or two trying to win it. Bet out like you have Aces here and give 'em a chance to fold.

StellarWind · #7 10-05-2004, 11:54 PM

I think checkcalling this flop is correct. The pot has become too big to take down with a bet. Cutoff is not going to fold overcards from the button for one bet. The other players probably won't fold either. It's hard not to have a pair, overcards, or a straight draw on this flop.

If I do bet, Cutoff will probably raise either because he has a good hand or because it's his turn. Then I pay two bets to draw to maybe 4 effective outs for my overcards plus about 1.75 outs for the backdoors. I don't see myself winning unimproved at showdown very often playing four-handed. Even if I am ahead right now they have position and many outs.

Besides, if the whole hand does happen to hinge on betting to knock out J7s or something before the turn, I have every reason to expect Cutoff to oblige.

Which brings me to the turn. What is going on at the other end of the table? Why did the flop check through? The alarm bells were going off in my mind but I chose to ignore them. I really regret that. I should follow my intuition at the table.

Cutoff raised the turn. UTG called the river blank and Cutoff showed down his snowmen. HHIG.

Thanks for your comments.

Danenania · #8 10-06-2004, 12:42 AM

The flop check is interesting to me as I almost always come out betting in these situations though I'm sure it's sometimes wrong. Your reasons for checking here seem correct. Would you c/r a late position bet? It would be nice to get someone to fold a gutshot or low pair (especially A3, A5, K3, K5).

StellarWind · #9 10-06-2004, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]

The flop check is interesting to me as I almost always come out betting in these situations though I'm sure it's sometimes wrong. Your reasons for checking here seem correct. Would you c/r a late position bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
No. Checkraising will often get me 3-bet when I have very few outs. The hands that I can realistically knock out given the pot size have very little chance to defeat the hand I am trying to make. So checkraising only helps me win unimproved and I don't see much hope in that anyway.

This is a debateable point. Certainly checkraising is a better use of two bets than betting and calling a raise (if one knew in advance that those are the choices).

Danenania · #10 10-06-2004, 01:17 AM

I expect you'll usually have 6 outs plus the backdoor flush here even when 3-bet as 99-QQ are much more likely than 88.