absolutely disgusting play AQo

housenuts · #1 10-05-2004, 03:31 AM

I don't think I played 1 street correctly with this hand.
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed) This was a 2-table SNG with 12 players remaining. I was 7th.

saw flop|saw showdown

CO (t1845)
Button (t3830)
SB (t1005)
BB (t2380)
UTG (t1830)
Hero (t1730)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, Hero raises to t300, CO folds, Button calls t300, SB folds, BB folds.

is that a good PF raise?

Flop: (t750) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t300, Button calls t300.

i'd been in a few flop situations with this opponent with rags/semi-rags on board and i checked, and he'd put in a big bet so i had to fold. i didn't want that to happen this time so i bet out. wrong?

Turn: (t1350) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets t300, Button raises to t600, Hero raises to t1130, Button calls t530.

at this point I felt I was pot-comitted. I really didn't think my A's were good. I figured he had 2 pair.

River: (t3610) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t3610

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Qd (one pair, aces).
Button has Qh Kc (straight, ace high).
Outcome: Button wins t3610. 

My analysis leads me to think I either check/fold or push the flop because otherwise I am pot commiting myself.

whiskeytown · #2 10-05-2004, 04:02 AM

yer boned after the flop...he won't go away till he misses the river.

I've gotten to the point where in early rounds, I won't raise with 3-4 times the BB anymore - I've been going for 5 or 6 ever since KK got snapped by J/10 offsuit.

in these loose games these days, making the standard raise is just begging to be called and run down. - raising to 300 (or twice more the BB...) just ain't gonna cut it

RB

housenuts · #3 10-05-2004, 05:37 AM

i thought about this. but then i got to thinking what would i do with the hand if he re-raised all-in? i would probably have to lay it down. i also figured if he's gonna call 300 he'd call 400 so it didn't really make a difference. now maybe 600 or so would be a different story, but then what do i do to a re-raise? at that point i'd have 1/3 of my stack in and might have to call. this kind of seems like it's going in a circle. so if 600 is no good, then it's push, fold, or a 300 raise like i did because i can lay that down.

now i'm thinking if i could lay down that 300 to a re-raise without being too boned about it, then on the flop i should check/fold.

do you agree?

betgo · #4 10-05-2004, 07:05 AM

I wouldn't raise more preflop, beacuse you would bbe pot committed with 17xBB. Raising 3xBB is standard here, but pushing, limping, or miniraising are playable. You would avoid playing a flop with so many chips committed with any of those options.

In general, I do not like open raising 6xBB. Against good players, you will usually just pick up the blinds. It may work in loose low buyin games. If people are going to make loose calls of your standard raise, let them. Sometimes you won't win the pot, but you get the money in with the best hand.

I don't like the 2/5 pot bet on the flop. Either make a bet to take the pot or check. You don't want your opponent to just call you, because then you have the same dilemma on the turn.

In this case, your opponent had the advantage on the flop, and he was not going away. He might have called if you had pushed. Some people would have reraised you allin on the flop with your opponent's hand.

Sam T. · #5 10-05-2004, 07:21 AM

I think your mistake was the flop bet. Here you need to either bet like you mean it or shut it down. The t300 bet just screams "The flop missed me!!!" Would you have bet TPTK this way?

If you want this pot, you're going to have to earn it.

betgo · #6 10-05-2004, 08:44 AM

I agree, but in this case if you made a real raise, you would have been called or reraised.

I wouldn't assume a small bet always means weakness. If I have a strong hand like a set, I will sometimes play that way, hoping to get reraised and getting some money in the pot.

However, with a bet like that you are unlikley to get anyone to fold with that kind of flop. If an aced flopped or the board was paired, that kind of bet sometimes wins the pot against multiple opponents.

Solitare · #7 10-05-2004, 08:50 AM

I almost always bet the flop if my AK/AQ/AJ doesn't pair up. The times I hesitate is when two of the flop cards are aces through tens, as it is on this flop. I think the chances that the caller has hit a pair, two pair, or some sort of straight draw (even just a gutshot) go up dramatically, taking your fold equity down. Also, you start losing outs, due to the straight and two-pair draws, as with this hand where you got the A you thought you wanted, which made the villians straight. I don't think that checking on the flop is the worst play here.

betgo · #8 10-05-2004, 09:31 AM

Yeh, you are right. This is a bad board to bluff at.

Generally, if you raise preflop and an ace falls, you bet representing an ace (unless you think it likely an opponent has an ace). If rags fall, you bet representing a big pair.

eastbay · #9 10-05-2004, 10:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
yer boned after the flop...he won't go away till he misses the river.

I've gotten to the point where in early rounds, I won't raise with 3-4 times the BB anymore - I've been going for 5 or 6 ever since KK got snapped by J/10 offsuit.

in these loose games these days, making the standard raise is just begging to be called and run down. - raising to 300 (or twice more the BB...) just ain't gonna cut it

RB

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be implying that you don't want a preflop call with JTo when you're holding KK? Hmmm.

eastbay

lucas9000 · #10 10-05-2004, 11:40 AM

i'll agree with others that the pre-flop raise is fine. you want to get heads up against an inferior (at least at the time [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ) hand. your problem was on the flop. you either bet or check & fold, imo. if you're going to bet, bet like you mean it. if he calls (as he probably would) or raises you, i'd say it's a pretty easy fold. you can't call already possibly behind and out of position. if you just check the flop, i can't see how you'd feel good about calling any bet. so check & fold is the other option.

i would have bet at it, fwiw.