The ol' bluff-call (low-content)

ethan · #1 09-30-2004, 02:26 AM

Party $20+2. There was a recent post about these getting tougher, and I just wanted to assure you all that all hope was not lost.

UTG had been very loose preflop, semi-loose on the flop, and then would give up on the turn/river against continued betting. He'd folded against me once, when I flopped 2 pair from the BB. At least, that was my impression of him until this hand. I'd shown down two hands so far, one KK overpair and a set of 9s. On the turn, I figured I had between 4-10 outs and that he'd probably fold without a decent hand. Little did I know....

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (6 handed)

BB (t515)
UTG (t1788)
MP (t832)
Hero (t3320)
Button (t305)
SB (t1240)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls t100, MP folds, Hero raises to t375, Button calls t305 (All-In), SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls t275.

Flop: (t1205) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, Hero bets t425, UTG calls t425.

Turn: (t2055) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
UTG checks, Hero bets t1000, UTG calls t988 (All-In).

River: (t4043) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t4043
Main Pot: t1065 (t1065), between UTG, Hero and Button. > Pot won by Button (t1065).
Pot 2: t2966 (t2966), between UTG and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (t2966).
Pot 3: t12 (t12), returned to Hero.

Results:
UTG has 5d Ks (high card, king).
Hero has Qs Kh (high card, king).
Button has Kc Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t2978. Button wins t1065.

Yup. K5o.

ChrisV · #2 09-30-2004, 03:08 AM

Heh. Even if he gives up the game, you'll still be around.

That bet on the flop is insane. The pot between you and UTG is 140 chips and you're betting 475 to try and win it. You can't beat the button without some serious help (and as it turns out, not even then).

But hey, he calls with K5, so what do I know...

ethan · #3 09-30-2004, 08:28 AM

I'm more comfortable with the flop bet because UTG has a history of calling bets there with garbage and then folding later. The side pot's small...I won't mind him putting some chips in and he'll still have enough to fold to an all-in on the turn. If he happens to fold on the flop, then I'll just hope to catch my 6/3-outer on the turn. (Or, as the case happens to be here, my runner-runner suckout. I'm usually not this far behind the button.) There's also the slight chance I'm already ahead of the button's KJ, but that didn't particularly factor into my thinking here.

On the flop, I don't know that I'm only playing for the side pot. My bet is sized so that my opponent might well call the flop, but have enough behind that I can make him fold the turn. The latter part of that is important. If he happens to fold the flop, then all of a sudden I'm getting better than 2:1 on my all-in vs the button.

Whatever the case may be, I'm not betting 425 just to try to win the side pot. That bet has a chance to get me better equity in the main pot, and given the opponent described here it may actually be a value bet since he'll call me with worse than KQ. As it happens, the flop bet worked ok for me, then the turn bet went terribly until I saw the hands I was up against. Once I saw the showdown it turns out it was more of a value bet than anything else I'd done this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

chill888 · #4 09-30-2004, 08:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm more comfortable with the flop bet because UTG has a history of calling bets there with garbage and then folding later. The side pot's small...I won't mind him putting some chips in and he'll still have enough to fold to an all-in on the turn. If he happens to fold on the flop, then I'll just hope to catch my 6/3-outer on the turn. (Or, as the case happens to be here, my runner-runner suckout. I'm usually not this far behind the button.) There's also the slight chance I'm already ahead of the button's KJ, but that didn't particularly factor into my thinking here.

On the flop, I don't know that I'm only playing for the side pot. My bet is sized so that my opponent might well call the flop, but have enough behind that I can make him fold the turn. The latter part of that is important. If he happens to fold the flop, then all of a sudden I'm getting better than 2:1 on my all-in vs the button.

Whatever the case may be, I'm not betting 425 just to try to win the side pot. That bet has a chance to get me better equity in the main pot, and given the opponent described here it may actually be a value bet since he'll call me with worse than KQ. As it happens, the flop bet worked ok for me, then the turn bet went terribly until I saw the hands I was up against. Once I saw the showdown it turns out it was more of a value bet than anything else I'd done this hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like a lot of thinking BUT:

That hand is Poker101 on how to (try and) waste a big stack with not much.

gl

ethan · #5 09-30-2004, 09:07 AM

Yup. This I'm well aware of. Betting into a calling station with only overcards is always a good plan [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I wasn't surprised by the call on the flop, and once it came I wasn't too worried about the button. (I could still profit by winning the side pot.) I just expected a fold on the turn.

There are plenty of ways for me to rationalize my play (as evidenced by the post you replied to) but the fact remains I could have gotten away from the hand without nearly the risk I took. My play in the original post is certainly not routine for me.

That said, given my read on UTG in this hand (based on 3-4 hands where he'd called decent bets the flop and then folded either on the turn/river, whenever a bet was most of his stack) how would you have played this? I really don't have any reason to think I'm behind until he calls the turn. He's called 2/3 pot on a previous flop with just a gutshot, so his call on this one really doesn't mean much.

PrayingMantis · #6 09-30-2004, 10:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
That said, given my read on UTG in this hand (based on 3-4 hands where he'd called decent bets the flop and then folded either on the turn/river, whenever a bet was most of his stack) how would you have played this? I really don't have any reason to think I'm behind until he calls the turn. He's called 2/3 pot on a previous flop with just a gutshot, so his call on this one really doesn't mean much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you are completely contradicting yourself with this reasoning of your play. If this guy is calling big bets with anything, he's the last one you want to push out of a (dry!) pot, when you have nothing yourself. You simply got lucky since he really had absolute crap, but many times he will have an A, or any poor piece of the flop, that is ahead of you. Not a good play.