Regarding Israel

[Abednego]

I would like to inquire the forum regarding the right of Israel to exist as a nation.

From what I understand, the movement toward a Jewish homeland (Zionism) began in the late 19th century (around 1890 or so). But the movement really gained momentum with the Balfour Declaration in Great Britain sometime in the 20th century (not sure of the exact date). Then after the atrocities committed against the Jews by Nazi Germany and the considering a history of anti-semitism throughout Europe the UN mandated the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 from partitioned lands. The Arab nations immediately declared war.

Now I realize that this partioned land had people living there when this occurred. But as far as I know Jewish people have lived there as long as anybody else has including the Palestinians. The Arabs nations, with the exception of Egypt, and the Palestinians have never denounced their intention of "pushing Israel into the sea" which they declared when Isreal was granted sovereignty.

Now it seems to me that if Israel has the right to exist then it has the right to defend itself. And if there is to be peace in the Middle East non-Jewish peoples have to recognize Israels right to exist. If they are unwilling then Israel has every right to retaliate every time it is attacked and keep any land they take in the process. If they knew that their neighbors were willing to accept their right to exist then I can see Israel making concessions of some of the land won in the 1967 war. If not then why should Israel put itself at greater risk?

If I am not correct in any of the facts I have mentioned please elaborate. But the question is ..... Does Israel have a right to exist?

[GWB]

[ QUOTE ]
Does Israel have a right to exist?


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Yes

I doubt there is a country today that is occupied by the same people throughout history. Migration, conquest etc. are a staple of history. We should focus on the real people who live in the world today, whereever they happen to live.

[nicky g]

"Now I realize that this partioned land had people living there when this occurred. But as far as I know Jewish people have lived there as long as anybody else has including the Palestinians."

Some, but not very many. The vast majority of the population had been Arabs for centuries.

"Now it seems to me that if Israel has the right to exist then it has the right to defend itself. And if there is to be peace in the Middle East non-Jewish peoples have to recognize Israels right to exist."

Egypt, Jordan and the Palsestinians recognise Israel. The only neighbours who don't are the Syrians, and that's because Israel still holds on to Syrian land. They have asked for peace talks in the past. Regardless Syria's relationship with ISrael should not impinge on their treatment of the Palestinians.

"If they are unwilling then Israel has every right to retaliate every time it is attacked and keep any land they take in the process."

A. Israel attacked in 1967, not the Arabs. B. If they keep that land, do they have the right to expal its indigenous inhabitants? Do they have the right to hold on to the land for 40 years while refusing to allow its inhabitants citizenship? Normally when a country takes over land in a war it gives it back or fully incorporates it; it doesn;t claim privileges over it and its resources over it while denying any sort of rights to its inhabitants.

[ACPlayer]

I believe that any nation founded on the principle of protecting or promoting a religious group is founded on a bad premise. This was true of Christian states in the past, muslim and hindu states today, and of Israel.

Whether or not Israel has a right to exist is moot. What is not moot is that their treatment of the people who have lived there for generations is criminal. There complete lack of desire for peace is obvious and this has caused many millions to be uprooted, transplanted and moved into Ghettos. By there actions they give Judaism a bad name and make Israel a target for the terrorists -- who at this point have nothing to loose.

[Gamblor]

Some, but not very many.

The cities of Tzfat, Jerusalem, Tiberya, and Hevron were majority Jewish until 1948, when the Jewish population of Hevron were expelled in Arab riots.

[Gamblor]

Rights of the Jewish People to a sovereign state in their own homeland

[Gamblor]

If you believe that Judaism is best described as a religion, then you would be right. But secular Jews are still Jews.

In fact, Jewish prayer books describe Judaism not as a religion, but as a nationality. Same as German, American, etc. etc.

When you meet a guy named Theonis Kyritsis street, he's adopted America as his homeland, but you ask his nationality? Greek, he'll tell you. Same deal.

Only after they were exiled from Israel did Jews begin to adopt religion as their primary means of identification; It was necessitated by their desire to fit in to

But in every prayer service, no less than a dozen times, do Jews pray for the return to Zion, ingathering of exiles, and a rebuilding of the Jewish State.

No matter how hard we try, we're outsiders. Accepted as equals is fine and dandy, and I for one, given history, appreciate it more than you could imagine. Jews express this appreciation by the mitzvah of following the laws of the land you adopt as home. But it's not home.

[nicky g]

"The cities of Tzfat, Jerusalem, Tiberya, and Hevron were majority Jewish until 1948, when the Jewish population of Hevron were expelled in Arab riots."

Notice the b it where I said "for centuries," in response to the poster's question about Jews having "lived there as long as anybody else has". Jerusalem had become majority Jewish recently as part of the efforts to establish that state. I also understood we were talking about the country as a whole. By your logic Bradford could declare an independent Asian Muslim state in the north of England.

[Gamblor]

Jerusalem had become majority Jewish recently as part of the efforts to establish that state

Jerusalem was probably least affected by the Jewish return to Israel. Efforts to establish the state long anteceded the return of Jews - most were refugees fleeing pogroms, not idealogues who planned on building a State.

[nicky g]

"Greater Jersusalem, which was to be internationalized, included about 100,000 Jews and a larger number of Arabs."

This site claims the Arabs were in a majority prior to the partition in Jerusalem. But I accept it had a large Jewish population by 1948.

"An Anglo-American commission of inquiry in 1945 and 1946 examined the status of Palestine. No official census figures were available, as no census had been conducted in Palestine in 1940, so all their surmises and figures are based on extrapolations and surmises. According to the report, at the end of 1946, 1,269,000 Arabs and 608,000 Jews resided within the borders of Mandate Palestine. Jews had purchased 6 to 8 percent of the total land area of Palestine. This was about 20% of the land that could be settled and cultivated. About 46% of the land belonged to Arab owners living on the land or absentee owners, and about the same amount was government land. The partition borders were drawn to give the Jews a majority within the allotted area of the Jewish state, but the land conquered during the fighting included the populous Arab areas of the Galilee, as well as Arab towns such as Lod and Ramla. Greater Jersusalem, which was to be internationalized, included about 100,000 Jews and a larger number of Arabs ."

Population and Land Ownership prior to the UN Partition Resolution