So a priest, a LAG and a fireman walk into a bar...

SomethingClever · #1 09-23-2004, 03:55 PM

What's your action on this flop? Also, how's the preflop call?

Reads: UTG +1 is showing signs of being a maniac.

EDIT: Er, maybe he's not, since I just sat down and posted in the CO. I'm thinking of the UTG +1 from a different table.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 raises, Hero (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Flop: (16 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero????

SomethingClever · #2 09-23-2004, 04:55 PM

Okay, my abstract title has gotten me zero responses.

Whaddaya do on this flop? If it was checked to me, I'd bet. If it was bet once before me, I'd raise.

But facing two bets in such a large field... I'm scared of the 5. Anyone have a good argument for calling or raising the flop?

brettbrettr · #3 09-23-2004, 05:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
But facing two bets in such a large field... I'm scared of the 5. Anyone have a good argument for calling or raising the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont', but I'd have folded pre-flop.

SomethingClever · #4 09-23-2004, 05:28 PM

I'm not closing the action, but I'm likely getting 12-1 on my preflop call... isn't that worth it?

Edit: Of course, it turned out to be 15-1, but even if I can only "expect" 12-1, I think I have to call, no?

MEbenhoe · #5 09-23-2004, 05:35 PM

Well you have to make that call preflop because you posted from the CO. Personally I hate posting from CO and would rather wait for my blind. This is for reasons gonores explained well in another thread. Posting in the CO you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands, none of which are on the button. Waiting for your blind you pay 1.5 SB to see 9 hands 1 of which is on the button. This idea is even more magnified in a 6 max game. This is why I feel its always a better option to wait for your blind.

As far as the flop play goes, with that large of a field its very likely that someone could have a 5, and someone could have K8 or A8. Also even if you are actually winning at this point, what are the chances that you'll actually be winning at the end of this hand against all these other players which by their play, most of them will probably be in until the river. All these other players being in the hand will result in implicit collusion and unless you catch perfect one of them will run you down. This is a clear fold due to the fact that there is a good chance you're already beaten, and even if you aren't its unlikely you'll have the best hand at the end, and unlikely you can force hands out. Even the huge odds the pot is offering you to call at 11.5:1 don't justify calling in the hopes of seeing another 8 come up.

Smasharoo · #6 09-23-2004, 05:44 PM

Fold. Assuming your pair of 8's isn't going to hold up as the best hand, you're looking at what, 2 outs where you win the hand barring runner runner queens or clubs.

You need an 8 realistically. To call $1 you need ~$20 in the pot. You're looking at ~$15 maybe.

Someone almost certainly has an overpair to the board, if not the 5. I can't see how you're not behind here.

SomethingClever · #7 09-23-2004, 05:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands from CO [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

You pay 1 SB to see 8 hands. It's actually better than waiting for the blind.

I basically agree with your flop analysis, though. Field's too big and with no reads, I can't call.

After these results, I got some reads.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP2 posts a blind of $0.50. Hero posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, MP3 raises, Hero (poster) calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Flop: (16 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Hero folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (11.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB
Main Pot: 15.50 BB, between MP3 and UTG+1. > Pot won by MP3 (15.50 BB).

Results
UTG+1 has 6s 9s (one pair, fives).
MP3 has 4h 4s (two pair, fives and fours).
Outcome: MP3 wins 15.50 BB.

CT11 · #8 09-23-2004, 05:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Posting in the CO you pay 2.5 SB to see 8 hands, none of which are on the button. Waiting for your blind you pay 1.5 SB to see 9 hands 1 of which is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

With this logic you pay for hands after they are played so your really paying 1BB for 1 hand then 1.5 for 10 hands untill you're done. If you leave after UTG you get 8 free.

It makes more sense to count as if you pay in advance. so your getting 7 hands for 1BB then 10 for 1.5BB untill you're done. 1/7 = .143BB/hand and 1.5/10 = .15BB/hand so your really actually getting a slight deal doing this. This assumes a 10 player game. Its even for 9 player and worse for <9 player.

But it may be more +EV to watch for 7/10 th of an orbit to make sure you have a good table.

~CT11

nothumb · #9 09-23-2004, 07:32 PM

All you nit bastards should be forced to post from UTG for the rest of your lives, and post live straddles too, for debating this crap. Especially in live games - post already, for chrissakes. Online is a little more forgivable, but geez.

NT

MEbenhoe · #10 09-23-2004, 09:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All you nit bastards should be forced to post from UTG for the rest of your lives, and post live straddles too, for debating this crap. Especially in live games - post already, for chrissakes. Online is a little more forgivable, but geez.

NT

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems ridiculuos to me that people would want to add more hands where they're putting money in the pot without a choice. It's simply smart poker to wait for your blind to post and always play your last hand of your session from UTG.