I had to fold here, right?

mistrpug · #1 09-20-2004, 04:29 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is Button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
3 folds, MP1 (poster) raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP1 caps, MP3 calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB calls.

KJ suited on the button I decided I could call the two bets cold. I think this is borderlinebut not horrible. Maybe I'm wrong there. Once I called the first 2 bets, well the odds I figured were there to cold call again. Was that bad?

Flop: (20 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP1 raises, MP3 3-bets, Hero folds, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (16 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, MP3 bets, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 folds.

River: (19 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB bets, MP3 calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 21 BB

Well it turns out I would have backdoored the flush and won. Of course, I didn't need the flush, since my jacks with a king kicker would have held up! [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img] MP3 shows QJ, BB shows TT.

Even if the consensus is my preflop play is poor, I have to fold there to three bets on the flop, don't I?

Thanks in advance. Try not to be too harsh.

BaronVonCP · #2 09-20-2004, 04:35 PM

Don't call preflop if you are going to fold on the flop when you have top pair and 2 backdoor draws to monster hands.

lil' · #3 09-20-2004, 04:44 PM

No way would I fold pre-flop. You see the stupidest pre-flop raises from people who post before a hand. Then they defend those chips like it's life or death. They'd be better off waiiting until the BB to post if they're gonna overplay it like that.

But anyway, I would never fold preflop here. I think I'd actually 3 bet pre-flop.

On the flop, I'd be inclined to cap and go from there. 3 betting pre-flop may have changed the flop action.

LikesToLose · #4 09-20-2004, 05:42 PM

I'm not real fond of the pre-flop cold call with KJs. Against a raise and caller, it is a good chance you are dominated. Again, 2 bets back to you, I think this is OK to call because you are getting good odds.

On the flop, it is hard to think you are ahead. However, I doubt anyone is going away if you call. More likely to get capped again. 25sb:3sb currently or 40sb:4sb if it gets capped behind you and everybody still comes along. Then the nightmare where you call, it is re-raised and everyone behind folds: 26:4
I figure it:
1.5 outs for the backdoor flush
2 outs for a jack
1.5 discounted outs for the 3 kings
total: 5 outs: Need 8:1. The nightmare is the only one that is a fold and I wouldn't think it would be that bad, plus you should pick up extra bets if you hit something, so I call.

Turn and river are call and re-raise respectively.

Mark
I only post so people can tell me I'm wrong.

lil' · #5 09-20-2004, 05:45 PM

Against a raise and caller, it is a good chance you are dominated.
Often this is true. In this spot, it's less likely to be true. I give much less respect to raises from late position posters, and very rarely have I been shown a strong hand when it does get to showdown.

MoreWineII · #6 09-20-2004, 05:46 PM

Took the words right out my mouth. This isn't a bad flop for you. Top pair, good kicker, backdoor flush and straight draws...

Entity · #7 09-20-2004, 05:50 PM

If you're going to fold on a gorgeous flop like this, you need to fold this hand against the PFR.

I don't like calling two cold when it comes back capped to you, but it is 5-way action, so it's not terrible. I'd call JTs here if it were 6-way, so KJs can't be horrible 5-way.

On the flop, you have to call, unless you have a tight-passive read on some of these players (and then, you should've folded preflop).

Rob

Eihli · #8 09-20-2004, 05:59 PM

I would have folded this preflop, but let me pose a similar situation.

Same people from the original hand call to me preflop, I raise, everyone calls. Same flop action. Does your flop play change since they are betting/raising into the preflop raiser?