66, turns a set

cold_cash · #1 09-20-2004, 01:45 PM

Table was loose with bouts of aggression pre-flop, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Fellow 2+2'er and "live one" Jaran was on the Button here, but folded pre-flop like a coward.

The CO seemed fairly tight compared to the rest of the players, but he'd only been at the table for a couple orbits.

I've got a couple specific questions, but I'll wait on those for a little bit. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River: (27.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 34.50 BB
Main Pot: 34.50 BB, between UTG+2, MP1 and Hero.

afk · #2 09-20-2004, 01:49 PM

I think you played it well. Gotta love how EVERYONE calls the flop raise.

illunious · #3 09-20-2004, 02:44 PM

I'd check fold the flop.

By checkraising the flop, do you want to get it heads up with you and CO's overcards? I admit I never do this, so if I'm wrong please tell me why.

I don't think this works in your favor enough, you're in really bad shape when anyone else calls the raise, or when everyone folds and you get reraised (what happened on the flop is a disaster for a 3 SB investment).

cold_cash · #4 09-20-2004, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
By checkraising the flop, do you want to get it heads up with you and CO's overcards? I admit I never do this, so if I'm wrong please tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ideally, yes. Why wouldn't you want to be heads up with the CO's overcards?

I admit the flop check-raise kind of blew up in my face, but I figured the pot was big enough at the time to go for it. I (obviously) didn't expect everybody to call.

I'm thinking that this play is weakened because of the flush draw, and would be much better with a rainbow flop. I'm still not convinced it's the wrong play, however, and that's a big reason why I wanted some feedback.

derick · #5 09-20-2004, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Table was loose with bouts of aggression pre-flop, but nothing really out of the ordinary. Fellow 2+2'er and "live one" Jaran was on the Button here, but folded pre-flop like a coward.

The CO seemed fairly tight compared to the rest of the players, but he'd only been at the table for a couple orbits.

I've got a couple specific questions, but I'll wait on those for a little bit. Comments on all streets appreciated.

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, 2 folds, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn’t have cold called with 66, I’d have folded pairs less than about 99.

[ QUOTE ]

Flop: (10 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO 3-bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you check raising the CO?
Do you believe that you have the best hand? Or are you trying to protect you 2nd pair?

[ QUOTE ]

Turn: (12.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, CO raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, bet here.

[ QUOTE ]

River: (27.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have re-raised.

[ QUOTE ]

Final Pot: 34.50 BB
Main Pot: 34.50 BB, between UTG+2, MP1 and Hero.

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m just a beginner so I’d love to hear analysis of my analysis.

Derick

cold_cash · #6 09-20-2004, 03:14 PM

I think there's a reasonable chance that I have the best hand after the flop, yes.

I'm check-raising the CO because I think there are quite a few hands (overcards) that he would raise with pre-flop that I'm ahead of. I would also like everyone behind me to fold, and check-raising the flop seemed like the best way to accomplish that.

Re-raising the river never crossed my mind. Actually, I wasn't even sure if I should have bet it. MP1 did a lot of calling, then came to life when the third heart hit. I was positive I was beaten.

Jaran · #7 09-20-2004, 03:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fellow 2+2'er and "live one" Jaran was on the Button here, but folded pre-flop like a coward.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why I oughta...

BTW, I loved MP1's comments after the hand. Classic. As to the coward part, I'll most certainly raise w/74o next time.

-Jaran

easypete · #8 09-20-2004, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'd check fold the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? You have favorable position for the c/r to drive out the other players ( [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] that worked out well). And just because the CO raise pf, doesn't mean PP... More often than not, it's overcards.

Overcards that may raise here:
AK (16 combinations), AQ (16 combinations), AJ(16 combinations), KQ (16 combinations), QJs (4 combinations), KJs (4 combinations), KTs (4 combinations)

Pockets that may raise here:
AA-JJ (6 combinations each = 24 combinations) TT (3 combinations left), 99 = 6 combinations.

You are 76:33 (overcards

airs) ==> 2.3:1. You may have the best hand here, a raise is good... The 3-bet lets you know you might just be up against an overpair.

[ QUOTE ]
By checkraising the flop, do you want to get it heads up with you and CO's overcards? I admit I never do this, so if I'm wrong please tell me why.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you check raising the CO?
Do you believe that you have the best hand? Or are you trying to protect you 2nd pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read ToP. Read HPFAP. Read SSH. You may have only a 30% chance of winning here (pulling this figure out of the air). By raising, and getting heads up... you may increase your chances of winning by 10% or better. If you don't do this, you allow the other 2 players to call w/ weak draws and overcards that may hit on turn or river. So that's 4 cards 2 times that you have to dodge if the other 2 call. In this scenario, it didn't work, but it will many times.

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn’t have cold called with 66, I’d have folded pairs less than about 99.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is borderline. I like to have 4-5 seeing the flop w/ pockets... 2 limpers will call (about 95+% of the time), the CO is in... I hope the blinds come in.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

River: (27.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have re-raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP1 was silent the entire hand (cold-calling 2 on flop and call 1/call 2 on turn) and now raises the river. This looks like a flush. I'm not raising here. You will lose 2 more BB.

[ QUOTE ]
BTW, I loved MP1's comments after the hand. Classic. As to the coward part, I'll most certainly raise w/74o next time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that SOP for you?

edthayer · #9 09-20-2004, 04:12 PM

Fold this on the flop. Reverse implied odds here. If you're beat, it's going to be hard to tell, and you'll lose the maximum. If you are ahead, you win the minimum. Against a field this big, you probably don't have the best hand, and you don't have the 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], so you can make your set and still lose to flush, or give people a redraw.
Fold, fold, fold!!!

Turn and river are fine. Preflop is borderline. I know I've made calls like this before.

derick · #10 09-20-2004, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you check raising the CO?
Do you believe that you have the best hand? Or are you trying to protect you 2nd pair?

[/ QUOTE ]

Read ToP. Read HPFAP. Read SSH. You may have only a 30% chance of winning here (pulling this figure out of the air). By raising, and getting heads up... you may increase your chances of winning by 10% or better. If you don't do this, you allow the other 2 players to call w/ weak draws and overcards that may hit on turn or river. So that's 4 cards 2 times that you have to dodge if the other 2 call. In this scenario, it didn't work, but it will many times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the reply,

I must admit I'm reading HEPFAP and SSH but I think my problem is knowing which concept to apply.

My thinking was that with 66 you want to keep people in so that you can spike a third 6 and then go to town. I thought that small pairs play well in multihanded games so you don't want to Check raise the people out?

Or am I applying the wrong concept to this hand?

thanks

Derick