Thoughts on getting staked (Long)

[bigfishead]

I Played a tournament yesterday, 90 players $120 buy-in, NL.
I played my normal NL tournament game which is extremely tight, especially early as far as calling any raises. So much so that for the first 3 levels I only saw 1 flop. Even mucking 1010 in the BB to a button raises from 1 of 2 other tight asses. I even commented on that hand " Anyone but you" and I shove or call at a minimum.

Well this guy grabs me after the 2nd break. I am at about 2 1/2 times my original stack and have shown only 1 hand. He explains to me he is part of a company or group that is looking to "invest" in tournament players. He says that he is interested in me. Likes my game.

So here's how it works. I let them know which tournaments I want to enter in the upcoming month. The buy-ins, rebuys, etc. They shoot me the money. I play as I wish in those events. All "cashes" are split 50/50 AFTER the entry.

1 problem I see for myself: Hypothetically, I cash $200,000.00 in an event. (after entry fee lets say). I get a w2g for 200k. Give them 100k and get hammered for taxes of 200k at a 30% tax bracket so I can only net 40k. I would expect that they must allow me to "write-off" my payoff back to them. But we havent even gotten to that level of discussion yet. Seems like if not, I am only playing for 20%. While this may be a way to slowly build up a BR, It doesnt exactly excite me. Now if there is a way to actually CLEAR say 40% then I am interested. Any Thoughts?

I felt it was certainly a compliment to my game. While I have not been cashing hardly at all for the last month or 2, I can say I have made only 1 mistake in the last 7 tournaments I played. A read I didnt go with. Yesterday was another played "perfect" day. And for the 7th tournament in a row I got knocked out/crushed on a big hand pre-flop vs a bigger hand. 7 times in a row I have had either QQ or KK and faced an over pair preflop. Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.
I only lasted 2 more hands but was so poorly stacked it didnt matter. Ended up 15th. I know I made the right play for the right reasons. So I have been "running bad" lately when it comes to "cashing" at tournaments. No biggie. I have played well. Statistically it's a huge oddity but hey it happens. But it still is tough keeping my chin up. Then this guy shows up. wow, ty sir. nice compliment. I was one of only 2 people he said he has witnessed with interest in the area. wow, ty sir.

We will be corresponding via e-mail and such to get a better idea of things in the near future. Right now tho I am interested in any thoughts or questions y'all may think of that I need to look at or be aware of.

Thanks in advance everyone. I'll keep ya up to date on the subject.

[Poker Junkie]

Big,

I don't have the experience that most of the other posters have on here but here are my thoughts. Your "investors" are taking all the risk and any money that you get is a bonus. Unless you play for a living and playing these other tournaments with the "investors" money will cut into your normal (hopefully profitable) use of poker time. Godd luck and definately let us know what's up. Hell, I'd take 10% just to keep from having to play all these crazy free-rolls all the time [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] But that might be because I'm po' folk.

[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Walt

[GrinningBuddha]

[ QUOTE ]
Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might need to work on stack management and pot odds before you worry as much about getting staked. It's never a good play to bet 2/3 of your stack pre-flop, and it's absolutely criminal to fold when you're getting 7-1 to call with QQ even if you are 90% sure you're beat.

As far as the offer you have, you might want to do some research on this group and see what kind of other 'investments' they pursue. If it's on the up and up, it might allow you to play higher than normal for a period, if for no other reason than to test your skills at the higher stakes. That said, there's something to be said for being your own man, ya know?

[PokerGoblin]

Interesting post. Yes I would definitely take that as a compliment. A few thoughts:

1) You need to find out if this guy will stake you into the really big events, because that's the only way you're going to make any decent money. If all he can stake is the smaller buy-in you're better off using your own money. However if they're willing to stake you into the 5k and 10k buy in events at the WSOP ot WPT for example, then the payout if you do well are worth your time even splitting the prize.

2) Are they willing to provide travel/lodging arrangments as well?

3) Consider your probability for success. Even the best tourney players in the would don't cash in every tournament. Usually the payout schedule starts with the final 10%. Furthermore generally the bottom 10% in the money just receive their buy in back. So you will really have to do well to have a profitable experience.

4) As far as the taxes go, I don't think you have to pay taxes on the whole amount if your have to pay your backers. Talk to a tax attorney about it. Another person you may want to contact is someone who posts frequently on here, his handle is acesover8s. I know he has some experience in that subject.

Hope that helps

PG

[fnurt]

When you get a W-2G, you can identify any other individuals who will be receiving a portion of the money. They are responsible for the tax on their portion, not you.

[bigfishead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Yesterday I bet 2/3rds of my stack UTG w/QQ and the ROCK on the button shoved all-in over the top. He was called all-in by the SB. I KNEW I was beat at least by the button. I mucked. Button had AA SB JJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you might need to work on stack management and pot odds before you worry as much about getting staked. It's never a good play to bet 2/3 of your stack pre-flop, and it's absolutely criminal to fold when you're getting 7-1 to call with QQ even if you are 90% sure you're beat.

As far as the offer you have, you might want to do some research on this group and see what kind of other 'investments' they pursue. If it's on the up and up, it might allow you to play higher than normal for a period, if for no other reason than to test your skills at the higher stakes. That said, there's something to be said for being your own man, ya know?

[/ QUOTE ]

First, I didnt get into detailed amounts, as that wasnt as relevant. But it was 2k-4k blinds, 300 ante. I utg open raised to 12k, which was in the correct range, especially considering many lessor hands could have gotten involved(JJ did), leaving me with a nice edge. After the bet I had under 10k, so the actual amount wasnt quite 2/3rds but over 1/2. I knew I was too big a dog, was getting actually about 6-1, and I took a long time but knew I had to muck. I gave myself the best shot, and knew exactly where I was at. A chip and a chair. Not calling with a loser when the odds are not in my favor, and more importantly knowing the "gap concept" and "I'm borke, I'm out". I have taking lessor stacks to the final table and won, so dont try to talk to my about management. Oh and I was 100% sure I was beat. I know my main oppnents play well, and the SB was a 50/05 shot to have me beat.

Second part:

Yes I do believe it is very much on the up & up, and is a business with real "investors". From the info I have gathered thus far, it is in fact a business but thanks for the thoughts on it, I will certainly pay close attn and go on my reads there.

Playing at a higher level is certainly of interest to me too. I know many of those top players you have seen on tv quite well. I have dealt to many of them for some time. I know a bit about their games. And what you may have seen on tv is a small bit. So the challenge is natually of great interest to me also. I am not intimidated but look forward to that challenge. However, I also have told them I have no interest in quitting my job to run around on tour for 3-4 months, end up not cashing as is certainly possible and get cut loose as a bad investment. I would only pick certain events that I can get the time off for. Now if I am very successful, and end up with a nice BR, I could rethink that thought.

Being your own man is something to consider. It can also be an ego problem. I will certainly look at both sides of the equation. I dont want to egotitstically "be my own man", and pass an opportunity to improve my "manhood". It is certainly possible, this will allow me some growth in my own self-evaluation of my game as well as growth in my wallet. Neither can be bad.

Thanks for your thoughts. More for me to nibble on.

[bigfishead]

Thanks for your reply Goblin.

1) It appears they are willing to allow for entry into larger events. More will be revealed.

2) Doesnt appear so. But this is so early in discussion I cant say for sure.

3) Understood.

4) Thanks, I may contact him.

[gergery]

If you are a winning player, then getting staked is an EV- proposition at a given entry fee level. The only reason to do it is to spread risk -- you can play at a $ level higher than you could afford to otherwise, and the return from playing there compensates for having to share the higher return.

You are in essence paying your backer to reduce your variance, which can be a great idea, but only if you can't afford the variance yourself.

--Greg

[bigfishead]

I really only see your point in regard to variance as relevant. That sustains the BR to play in the events. Understood. I am not financially able to enter large buy-in events. The point has already been made about being given a chance to move up to these higher limits. That is certainly a plus. There are a number of quite famous tournament players that sell themselves out a certain % in most all the big events. Some of them do it because the are once again broke from lousy play in high stakes games. Others are broke from the craps table. Others just seem to rather NEVER use their own money and keep rat-holeing it while people will put them in for a percentage. I am aware of some who get full buy-in and backer gets 40%. Interesting.

The aspect of if you are a winning player losing EV by taking on backers isn't relavent in this discussion particularly, because the issue isnt about EV...in this discussion. Yet I perfectly understand your point and naturally agree.

Thanks for your comments.

[sam h]

[ QUOTE ]
First, I didnt get into detailed amounts, as that wasnt as relevant. But it was 2k-4k blinds, 300 ante. I utg open raised to 12k, which was in the correct range, especially considering many lessor hands could have gotten involved(JJ did), leaving me with a nice edge. After the bet I had under 10k, so the actual amount wasnt quite 2/3rds but over 1/2. I knew I was too big a dog, was getting actually about 6-1, and I took a long time but knew I had to muck. I gave myself the best shot, and knew exactly where I was at. A chip and a chair. Not calling with a loser when the odds are not in my favor, and more importantly knowing the "gap concept" and "I'm borke, I'm out". I have taking lessor stacks to the final table and won, so dont try to talk to my about management. Oh and I was 100% sure I was beat. I know my main oppnents play well, and the SB was a 50/05 shot to have me beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is still a terrible fold. Passing up 6-1 is bad enough, but the fact that you will be posting nearly half your stack in the BB the next hand makes it even worse.