How hard do you push QJs?

Irishboy · #1 09-14-2004, 07:34 PM

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed)

Preflop: Irishboy is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, 1 fold, Irishboy raises, 1 fold, BB calls, MP calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, MP checks, Irishboy bets, BB calls, MP folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Irishboy bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Irishboy bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB
Main Pot: 8.25 BB, between Irishboy and BB.

BB is a pretty solid player. Somewhat tricky.

I almost always bet ther flop and turn in this situation. I have position and he hasn't given me a reason to slow down.

After he calls the turn bet, I am on a 1 pair draw. There weren't any real draws on the flop. He may have a piece, he may have an ace. Do you bluff bet the river since you have no showdown value?

FatTony · #2 09-14-2004, 08:01 PM

BB's call on the turn indicates to me that he has:
1) a 5 or low PP and is afraid of you holding a 10 or PP
2) Ace high and is calling you down b/c your turn bet is plausible with 2 face cards

That being said, I check behind on the river.

However, I'm pretty green having played 5/10 6-max for about a month now barely breaking even, so I thank all who give their comments to my response.

Gazza · #3 09-14-2004, 08:39 PM

I don't think you can play this way against a solid and tricky player (and probably against no-one). His call on the flop indicates he has a better hand than you and you won't be able to blast him out of the pot as there's not much there he is going to give a pre-flop raiser credit for. Not in the 10-20 party game anyway.
Obviously with AK you bet the turn and take the free showdown if it's still on offer but with QJ check behind on the turn and hope to hit. Call it off before it gets too expensive. It always feels horrible to lose hands like that one.

Gazza

Irishboy · #4 09-14-2004, 09:37 PM

I agree with your logic. I just wonder how much fold equity I have.

If you were in his spot, would you call a turn bet?

Gazza · #5 09-14-2004, 10:02 PM

Well if I had anything I would most likely CR you on the flop and you would be folding on the turn unless you really wanted to go to war with this hand.
If for some reason I called your flop bet with, say, an ace then i would fold to your turn bet. But there are many in this game who wouldn't.
Of course you have to be very agg in this game but I feel this hand is pushing it a bit too far

Gazza

Peter_rus · #6 09-14-2004, 10:20 PM

i would check river.

lefty rosen · #7 09-15-2004, 12:21 AM

There wasn't a logical draw, if he is solid as you say you are dead in the water. It's hard to push QJ as you can lose to a A high call down or even a King high.......

Guy McSucker · #8 09-15-2004, 05:58 AM

These kinds of hands really bug me.

Against a solid player, as here, I think you're clearly behind on the flop and unlikely to secure a fold with a turn bet. I am tending towards giving up after getting called on the flop, unless I hit of course.

What about the same hand against one of the all too common muppets who will call on the flop with anything/nothing? In that case do you have to bet the turn? (Did you even have to bet the flop?) And then what about the river? And what if you had AK against that kind of player?

Guy.

lefty rosen · #9 09-16-2004, 12:07 AM

This is very tricky against a bad calling station, I have seen them call down king 9 off(I'm not counting worse call downs that queen jack can beat, seen that too). It's very table dependant if the player sees you showing down winners I would bet and they wont chase to the river. If it's going bad then don't bother as he may have a brain and think he is on tilt and trying to buy the pot......