Pinned down by a backraiser - ATo

StellarWind · #1 09-14-2004, 01:30 PM

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter
BB is loose/passive. SB is tight/passive. UTG is very loose and pretty passive. The backraise is a shock and I don't have any read on it. UTG+1 is loose and extremely passive. Cutoff is new and I suspect he is a troublemaker but I don't know what he does.

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 4 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (10.25 BB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 13.25 BB
Main Pot: 13.25 BB, between Hero, BB and UTG.

Joe Tall · #2 09-14-2004, 01:38 PM

I often just limp in your position preflop unless my opponents are VERY poor preflop, the blinds are VERY weak, and I have a dominate presence where I get constantly checked to the flop as the preflop raiser. I also wold prefer 1 less opponent.

You have to raise the flop, hopefully scaring off the BB and getting UTG heads-up.

Peace,
Joe Tall

Yeknom58 · #3 09-14-2004, 01:42 PM

So what's the plan if UTG 3-bets and the BB folds.

Joe Tall · #4 09-14-2004, 01:50 PM

So what's the plan if UTG 3-bets and the BB folds.

Call down.

Peace,
Joe Tall

balkii · #5 09-14-2004, 02:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I often just limp in your position preflop unless my opponents are VERY poor preflop, the blinds are VERY weak, and I have a dominate presence where I get constantly checked to the flop as the preflop raiser

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

BB is loose/passive. SB is tight/passive. UTG is very loose and pretty passive. UTG+1 is loose and extremely passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

Garland · #6 09-14-2004, 02:50 PM

Obviously, UTG threatens a big pair with his limp-reraise, but by the river we can be pretty sure he doesn't have AA, QQ or JJ. So that leaves KK.

I guess the issue is whether to raise somewhere or not. I was wavering whether or not to raise the flop or turn, and probably the deciding factor was how many opponents were involved. I'd say if there were 4 or more players on the flop, I'd raise it. But since there's only 3, there's a significantly less chance of being drawn out on and playing it passively is the correct thing to do:

1) You don't want a lesser hand (underpair) to fold
2) You want to see the showdown cheap in case he has a monster
3) If he ever check to you, things are looking rosy, and you can value bet expecting a crying call.

I like it.

Garland

StellarWind · #7 09-15-2004, 10:26 AM

I think the preflop raise is borderline and limping is very reasonable. I was motivated by my loose opponents and the chance to force out the tight/passive small blind.

Usually when someone limps first in and then backraises I look at their profile. A tight/passive player usually has a premium hand, especially AA/KK. LAGs tend to have some volume hand like JTs or 55 or just plain junk.

I didn't know what to think this time because UTG is loose/passive and this player type almost never backraises.

I generally agree with Joe Tall. Raising is what you need to do in this situation when there is a third player. I decided to make an exception this time. When passive UTG bet the ace-high flop I decided it was likely that he had a premium hand such as AA or possibly AK/AQ. However I don't know this and I also need to consider the possibilities of KK/QQ or some random junk.

Obviously if I'm beat, the less I do the better. Otherwise he probably has two outs, more or less, and it may be best to call and let him keep betting. Raising may let him get away from his hand.

That is the heads-up argument. With three players you want to raise to force out the third player or collect on the 2-1 odds available on every bet. This time I decided to ignore the third player. I wasn't at all sure he even planned to call the ace-high flop given the strong preflop play. If he did call I figured that having a pair of aces offered a lot of protection. Without any overcards available he figured to have about 2-5 outs for a pocket pair, weaker ace, middle/bottom pair, or gutshot. Given such a weak draw and the chance that I was behind UTG and needed to improve, it didn't matter very much whether he called one bet or folded. Knocking him out would be an insignificant achievement or even -EV. Of course getting him to call two bets would be good and this player might well do that.

I think both calling and raising are reasonable in this case. I'd like to see some more discussion.

My flop read turned out to be accurate. One opponent had me badly beaten and the other was drawing very thin. I was just confused about who was who! As Garland guessed from the river play, UTG had KK. The BB has J8 for bottom two pair. The river crushed him and MHIG.

Thanks for the comments.