Never bet the flop?

[ChuckPelowski]

Sorry if this has been seen already.

If anyone has time to read this entire strategy, I would appreciate it. I have been using it for a few days and it seems to work for me, but I wanted some feedback. Thank you.

The following was taken from:Poker Blog

This is the key to not making stupid mistakes in a NL SNG. Never, ever, bluff on the flop. If you raised pre-flop and the flop misses you, check. More on this later. If the flop hits you, you've got a decision to make...bet, raise, or fold. The key variables here are reading your opponent and the potential for scare cards. If you are not last to act on the flop, you may be best served to never bet the flop, with rare exceptions for which I think I could still justify checking (ex. TT on a 962 rainbow flop). Any time the flop is bet and called/raised, the pot has become uncontrollable and has potential to end up all-in. You will avoid this.

A good example of when it's OK to bet the flop from last position would be A7 with a flop of T73 checked to you. You need to take the stab now on the likely chance that no one has a T and just about any card that falls other than an A or 7 renders you helpless.

Betting TPTK on the flop is the fastest way to losing a big chunk of chips and you will almost never get action unless you're beat.

[parappa]

I am extremely vulnerable to be taken in by this line of thinking, as is, apparently, Chuck. So if it's a bad idea, here's hoping that someone smarter than us posts in this thread.

There's a concept in TPFAP that says something like "never raise in a situation where you will vomit if someone re-raises," and a good many flop bets fall into this category-I will hate having invested a decent % of my stack and then get raised.

The most common situation that I could apply this to would be where I raise with AKo in early position and flop overcards. After reading SuperSystem and Doyle's
"If I'm the pre-flop raiser, I'll bet at it on the flop," I proceeded to blow off an awful lot of chips autobetting overcards from early position. Now I only bet at these kinds of things when I'm last to act and have a reasonable read saying that whomever I'm betting at will fold. And I _never_ try it on more than 2 players.

But, of course, I play 5+1 and 10+1, and you probably wouldn't go very far wrong there if you never bluffed when there were more than 4 people at the table.

(Note, though, that your heading says "never bet the flop," but that the article says "never bluff the flop.") [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[chill888]

I guess there may be many ways to win but ........

This is IMHO awful advice. I win more from betting post flop than anyother way. Doyle also says in Super System:

(these are my words): Very often both players (or everyone) miss the flop. The aggressive player wins when this happens.

Now, the secert is being able to get away from a bluff (while you are puking) or semi-bluff when you are raised.
If you are one of those guys that starts going " uh the pot odds are now so high I have to call the reriase" then maybe the advice makes sense.

GL

[parappa]

Are there any spots that you are more or less likely to do this kind of thing, chill? I assume heads-up, last-to-act is the spot. Are you happy to do it first to act or behind a group of checkers?

(oh, and my mistake, he does say not to bet the flop from early position)

[chill888]

Yes, mainly when it is a two way pot. If i bet preflop and was called - then I will often (not always) come out betting.

Similarly, if 2 way pot and i called and the preflop bettor checks to me.

It depends on flop my hand, my opponent, etc .. but these situations require frequent swings at the pot.


Of course it depends on situation, but you should be betting OFTEN in these circumstances. But as I said, you need discipline to often fold when raised.

gl


This is also true 3 way - but it is trickier here.


Regards

[poboys]

I've had some discussions with PokerNerd (author of the strategy posts) and I want to make a few points.

First, the paragraph is pnerd's (venetian on 2+2) strategy for very early (say levesl 1-3) in a low buy-in Sng game. He advocates a different approach once you get past the first few levels (or the field has been thinned).

So nerd's strategy is to bet when you have it and check when you don't early in the SnG. I don't think that's bad advice.

He waffles a little on betting TPTK (or even good kicker) and here's where I disagree with his line of thinking. If I hit TPTK then I normally bet out, but sometimes I'll check to re-raise--depends on the player. He's not saying NEVER bet the flop with TPTK, by the way.

Furthermore, I think the most controvertial (sp) idea in his strategy is not post-flop betting, but pre-flop betting. He usually does not raise (or raise much) with premium hands. He prefers to keep pots small, so that he's not pot committed nor does the pot size entice others to take stabs at it.

Finally, pNerds strategy in late rounds is extremely aggressive. So the comments that 'aggressiveness wins pots' is true, he just prefers to not be aggressive early.

Either way, the entire post is an excellent read and his ideas are at least worth thinking about (even if in the end you dismiss them).

[Potowame]

I think any poker advice that has never in it is not very good. Unless it says never call a two way all-in with 72os.

As for SS, I think you can take it to a different level if you read it again.

When to never bluff the flop :

#1 Playing a calling station HU or Multi.

#2 on a flop that you know had to hit your villan, but
Missed you.


When to always bet the flop:

1# against a calling station and you hit. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

2# Against a weak player that will fold alot, and say
take it "Dolly".

3# a good player that can Lay down hands, that beat you.


As for not betting a flop that hit you, Hmmm. What are you going to do check call? Maby if you Have a Weak hand like 1010 and a flop like A 5 9 , comes. Alot of times by check calling this flop you can get a free show down.

[La Brujita]

I have to say some of this advice is truly horrid.

I have to say first you don't really want to be bluffing much if at all in a four or more way pot.

But here is a tip if I can give one-never and I mean never listen to advice about nl hold'em that advocates always doing one thing or another. NL he is very situation specific and you have to be a bit chameleon-like to be a good player.

Points of disagreement:

1. Never bet a missed flop-horrible advice. Depends on the texture of the flop, number of opponents and passiveness/agressiveness of your opponents. If your opponent folds all the time without top pair decent kicker or better and you are heads up you check the flop?

2. Never betting the flop with a good hand may honestly be the worst advice I have read on this site in a long time. The reasons are almost too many to state but here are a few (i) you need to protect your strong hands (ii) you need to value bet your good hands (iii) you can't let people have an infinite price to draw (iv) if you check the flop and call you only put money in when your opponent's hands are good enough to put money in but not when they are weak. I could make a longer explanation but I hope that is clear.

[ChuckPelowski]

Has there been any real discussion of this strategy? It seems to work to a point, but I'd like some more feedback. I like a lot of the ideas, they just seem to go against the flow of what everyone else says.

[La Brujita]

I am skimming his blog and I will just list things I think are clearly incorrect:

1. With a playing stack, I strongly advise that no matter what level you're at, you play exactly like you would in a NL ring game (assuming you can win there).

2. You should never, ever go all-in with a playable stack unless you know with 99% certainty you have the best hand. Never.

3. In EP, with the exception of KK and AA (sometimes QQ), never raise pre-flop.

4. In the last two positions, with early limpers, limp with virtually anything that has a prayer of hitting a flop, J9o, any suited, any pair, any A, etc. Don't get stupid, but if you can grab the button, all the orphan pots are belong to you.

5. You see a free flop from the big blind with QT...the flop comes Q93 and you check because you don't like the kicker. It checks around. Now a harmless looking 6 falls. You bet out and someone in late position raises you (or calls, this is debatable depending on situation). You can't call. There's no way. So, you have to give it up without taking it to showdown. Or, you take it to showdown only to find you were dominated from the start and suckered into betting a second-best hand. That's why checking through AQ on the flop could be more profitable. A flop bet almost certainly scares everyone off. A flop check and turn raise pushes the curiosity button and makes for bigger pots. In most situations, curiosity > risk of free card.

6. There are two possibilities for river play: either you know (and I mean know) you have the best hand or you don't. If you don't, you want to see the showdown for as cheap as possible.

I stopped reading after this point.