check or bet

chio · #1 09-03-2004, 10:21 PM

my 10-20 experience continues

table is pretty loose, not as aggressive as i would expect for 10-20, SB is especially loose and terrible

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero??

check or bet?

naphand · #2 09-04-2004, 04:30 AM

I hate this spot. I think the "standard" line would be to check here with your outs. But betting will punish overcards and kicker-paired hands like A3, you will probably get calls from any-A hands hoping to pick up their gutshot. If you are raised you have odds to call for your OESD, and an OESD that will probably get action from any A on the River (and no A hand can beat you there, unless it s a runner-flush A).

You are worried about a CR from a Q? But you have odds to call if that happens. Surely you would of heard about a better Q pre-flop (AQ/KQ) and heard from a weaker Q on the flop. Loose and terrible players will play trashy Q's (I had a hand almost identical to this yesterday, except I raised a liper with 66 PF and was called by the SB with Q7o) and may be too weak to do anything with it, except call.

I think I put another bet in here. You may very well have the best hand, you have a strong draw even if behind. You are called by a lot of worse hands here, 1 overcard and a bunch of callers should not be enough to put you off yet.

exist · #3 09-04-2004, 08:27 AM

i think this a clear bet.

Michael Davis · #4 09-04-2004, 09:59 AM

Your hand is best here a ton of the time, and you have outs even if it isn't. This isn't like you need to hit those outs, though, your hand has a huge edge on its own. Bet.

-Michael

fyodor · #5 09-04-2004, 11:05 AM

I would advise betting but it would have to be in a 'do as I say not as I do' kind of capacity given this hand from last night:

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, MP folds, CO calls, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO checks, Button checks.

River: (8 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets, Button folds, Hero calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 6c 6d (two pair, queens and sixes).
CO shows 2d 5d (two pair, queens and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 10 BB. 

The table was kind of loose. I didn't give the Button's raises much credit. Thought I could easily be ahead of him hence the 3 bet to isolate. Oops. Flop not the worst that could happen to 66. But when they all call and another overcard falls I figure that's the end of the line for this little experiment.

In defence of my check though compared to yours: I had to act first; you were last. Yeah that's the ticket. I was going for the check raise. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

rory · #6 09-04-2004, 11:18 AM

Easy bet-- they have only called you so far. Don't stop betting until someone raises you.

-rory

chio · #7 09-04-2004, 06:57 PM

thanks for the responses, you guys all seem to say bet

strong reasons to bet
i doubt that turn card helped anyone
there is a chance of them all folding
protect my hand against what is likely tons of outs
have outs if raised

i think there is some merit to checking though
pot isn't too big
3 opponents
not a draw heavy board (more likely someone has a Q or bigger pocket pair)
i have a lot of outs if behind

anyhow, i bet and here's how the action went

Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, MP calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets, SB raises, UTG folds, MP 3-bets, Hero ??

do i have enough outs to continue?

chio · #8 09-04-2004, 07:20 PM

yes your hand is very different

the pot is much bigger on the turn
presence of a preflop raiser
you are completely out of position
many more overcards and draws to your pair
you only have 2 outs if you're behind

fyodor · #9 09-04-2004, 07:54 PM

Looks like you have odds to call. If one of them has A2 and the other is betting the flush draw you still have 6 outs plus your implied odds. Worst case scenario where someone has 67 is unlikely given your holding.

You may have as many as 10 outs.

vector · #10 09-05-2004, 01:13 AM

67 seems unlikely, they may have a slow played set each say 4s and 5s, which you are looking good against with 10 outs. Same goes for any 2 pair combo they have excluding a 6.

Even a set of Qs only cuts you to 8 outs, still an easy call.

Aside from 67 (drawing dead) the next worse situation is A2 with a non-diamond 2 and a flush draw. This would reduce you to 5 outs, 8.2:1.

Pot is currently offering 5.25:1 (action isn't closed though)... but the largest number of likely hands, low sets, two pairs, pair + draw, offer you from 3.6:1 to 6.6:1 so I think you can call.

Your opening comment about surprisingly passive for 10-20 makes me guess someone slow played QQ.

BTW, I would have bet the turn also.