World class from 2+2 ?

David Sklansky wrote :


Vince(!)*, I am not in a good mood tonight and you have made it worse. You have the talent to become a world class player and win a lot of money. I WANT someone to emerge from this forum with that distinction. But to get there you MUST stop worrying about preflop close plays. That is simply not where the money is.


What I am focusing on here is the comment about someone emerging from this forum to become world class. I don't think it has happened, although I could be mistaken. Someone let me know if there is. I am not talking about world class players that have posted here, but a player who began here as a medium player and developed.


I think that there comes a point where these forums become detrimental to further development. I doubt that world class status can be had through these forums. Much of the thinking is too conventional and predictable. These forums are more directed at developing good middle limit players that are one or two, or even three levels down from world class. Let me know where and how I am wrong.


My question is this. Can a player reasonably expect to develop into a world class player from this forum? (Assuming the potential ability, playing experience and all the rest).


Direct your comments at for any game or tournaments. Whatever.


This question/post should not be seen as an indictment of 2+2. Developing good middle limit players is a reasonable goal. HFAP itself is directed at this level.


Regards.

certainly can and is happening. two players that have come to this forum were im my eyes both extremely smart and talented and become world class players. they may not play in the highest possible games but play quite high stakes. one is john feeney, he was a prime candidate for moving up to the top. it would have hapened probably no matter what. but his writing on 2 +2 and time he spends thinking propelled him to near the top of the heap. he is indeed world class. another is the fossil man greg raymer. he was playing up in the northeast and doing well. i believe he put alot of time here discussing strategy for altruistic reasons. he has progressed into a world class player in a short time span. so it does happen although players may just have used 2+2 as a stepping stone but im sure it has given a little boost. we have a few others here on the threshold. and a bunch who have gone from breakeven type players to winning players who can know realistically make a living from the game if they put in the hours needed.

Thanks Ray,


Yes I did momentarily forget about Feeney. Even if he wasn't 100% world class yet, he certainly is 100% world class act. Also, I know from his posts that he took lessons from Sklansky. I had thought greg raymer was already up there when he posted. thanks for filling me in though. I think it is difficult to filter out what would have happened without this forum.


How are you defining world class? I would consider an expert player to make 30 bucks and up and hour (Mason's defintion which i think is fine). But world class is quite higher than that. Hourly rate is not as stable because of availability of the games. I would say at the level that Dan Negreanu plays or higher would be my definition.


I still have my doubts though. I have begun to feel my own mission is being at least somewhat hindered by twoplustwo participation. Understand this is not a slight. I have benefited enormously here. I just need to make a big push in the next two years.


Regards.

backdoor, at the last WSOP, Jeff Shulman took an informal poll among many of the participants as to who they thought were the best players. The poll segregated tournament poker from big bet poker from limit poker. Each of these were broken down into holdem, stud, omaha, etc. Many of the players thought of as being the best limit players are guys you never heard of. Most of them are high limit players at the Bellagio. None of the 2+2 posters made anyone's list.


In my humble opinion, David Sklansky is probably a "world-class" razz player. Ray Zee, when he was active in poker, was viewed as an all-around World Class Player in no limit, pot limit, and limit poker but not tournament poker.

Jim,


This does not necessarily mean that this forum can't help develop such a player. First, this forum is not that old. Becoming world class can take many, many years. Second, success with some would lead them to stop posting. They would see it as giving more than they are getting. Third, some players may not want to reveal who they are and the way that they think.


Do you feel that one could develop into world class player from this forum? Do you think that this form could inhibit such growth?


How are you defining world class?


The level just below world class can also be highly profitable (and is very difficult to reach as well).


I have no doubt that mid level pro could emerge from here (probably has several times over), although this itself is not as easy as it sounds.


If you wish to not respond for political reasons, I understand.


Regards.

My definition of world class is someone who can beat almost all games 40-80 or lower for good money. That same player will be quite capable of beating any size game if it contains even one bad player. Those super high games with no bad players whatsoever reqire strategy alterations that are rarely discussed on this forum. But those games are also ridiculous to play in. They require a million dollar bankroll to beat for half a small bet an hour. No more than twenty players in the world can justify, to my satisfaction, playing there, rather than playing 80-160 or 150-300.

"They would see it as giving more than they are getting. Third, some players may not want to reveal who they are and the way that they think."


Ray mentioned Feeney and Fossilman. Well, those two don't post here as often as they used to perhaps for the reasons you cite.


I doubt that the Forum can inhibit one's progress to world class status but I certainly would not expect his contributions to the forum to continue with the same frequency once he gets there. For example, I am sure Feeney continues to lurk even though he is at world class level.


BTW, this is not a slight at Feeney for ditching us or anything like that. Not at all. I am just lamenting his absence because the guy truly is an amazing poker thinker and a class act to boot.

very interesting, backdoor. and perhaps it brings the question: what is a world class player?


and another question: is there such a thing as a world class LIMIT player?


don't the big name players become such from their play in the main event at WSOP??


hmmm, hmmm--other questions??

Why set the bar at world class? What'd be more interesting to me is how many manage to grind it out at mid-limits, pay the bills and such, because of the 2+2 experience. So few pull it off, that in my mind, there are only two classes (among those who have tried). The ones who are in action today, and the ones who don't.


Backdoor makes an interesting point:


"I think that there comes a point where these forums become detrimental to further development. ... These forums are more directed at developing good middle limit players that are one or two, or even three levels down from world class."


I think that results from the general tone of poker literature that bleeds into the posts. Just from writing fun articles, I know it's hard as hell to 'know your audience,' because the audience is so diverse.


For example, how many times have you read a magazine article that was speaking at sophistocation level 8 (on a 1-low, 10-high scale), and then all of a sudden a term gets defined that only someone at level 2 would not know?


It happens all the time. This is a sign of a writer in trauma. Not his fault. It's so easy to jump levels in midstream, with an audience so wide.


(For articles, what I do sometimes is pretend I'm writing an email. For posts about hands, I just write whatever pops out, thinking only of the person I'm replying to, and when starting a thread, thinking of the dozen or so most frequent contributors.)


What happens at 2+2 is posters sometimes write as if they are talking to the nameless faceless lurkers, the same audience the paid writers speak to, so the tone takes on the same tone of the books and magazines, and that means it stays lower than world-class level thinking by recycling many (worthy!) thoughts, stuff the world-classers wouldn't be talking about.


Tommy

My definition of world class is someone who can beat almost all games 40-80 or lower for good money.


By that definition, I am world class (at least in holdem). But I don't think i am world class at all. Yet. But if I continue on, I must improve myself or I will go stale.


Do you think that the paricipation in these forums can bring a player to the 80-160 to 150-300 level? (To justify this, obviously one would have to make alot more money than say at 30-60 or 40-80 to make up for the increased risk)


Can this forum inhibit this? Sometimes the forum gets me focused on interesting and entertaining side issues which may not be in the best interest of pursuing reaching higher and higher levels.


What does one do to get over the mid limit hump to world class?


Anyone feel free to answer.


Regards.