Idea from SSH

Evan · #1 08-23-2004, 03:26 AM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Turn: (5 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG calls, Button calls.
This is why I'm posting this hand. Is this a good application of not rasing with big hands to induce overcalls or am I totally lsot on this one. This is a play I never would have made before reading SSH and I want to make sure I'm using it right.

River: (9 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG folds, Button folds, SB calls.
I should still raise the river, right? I would have to get both of the others to overcall to make it more profitable than raising, which SB will almost certainly call. 

Final Pot: 13 BB

Basically I just want to make sure I'm going for overcalls in the right spots and applying these new ideas correctly. Thanks.

Garland · #2 08-23-2004, 03:40 AM

From what I've read, I believe SSH encourages overcalls when the flop is non-threatening (e.g. set with no flush or straight draw present), but there is a flush draw present so keep that in mind.

That said, I'd probably play it the same as you. The only way you'd make more is if you simply called and both remaining players called.

Sucks to have to have a bettor to your right with the nuts, huh?

Garland

House-Lion · #3 08-23-2004, 03:46 AM

I'm aware of the concept, but people could still be on a draw here and many will call for a gut-shot to the straight. You do not want to split the pot with them without them having to pay for it.

I think you should charge the flush-draws two bets on the turn since they will call.

At this hand you are likely not up against a set but I think if you suspect you are then you need to raise as well to charge for the draw to the full house + you could still get plenty of action from a set.

Hallett · #4 08-23-2004, 04:28 AM

I don't like this at all.

You flop an open ended straight draw. You are 2.17-1 to hit your draw by the end of the hand. On the flop, you have a ton of callers...7 I think. I would either bet out, or more likely (based on your position) check raise as you have more callers than your odds require.

You hit your hand on the turn, and even though there are two diamonds out there, you wait until the river to raise. I don't think this is wise. If you show some aggression on the flop, you don't have all the callers on the turn, so you no longer have to think about how to appy a raise, using SSH. The hand looks after itself. You bet/ raise the turn, people have potential, so they call. You win more money.

Evan · #5 08-23-2004, 04:34 AM

I was hoping to check-raise the flop, but no one bet till the button and I didn't want to make half the field cold call 2, although maybe I should have. I also feel like I might have been bettter off riaseing the turn and hoping to pull the others along and get them committed to the pot. I wasn't sure what the best way to play this was, and I'm still not.

xerostar · #6 08-23-2004, 04:45 AM

I see a lot of confusion on the way to play this, and I don't know if what you did was necessarily bad. According to SSH, I think you induce overcalls if the players behind you are loose, I don't remember any specific place in the hand it mentions this, so I believe it applies for the flop, turn, and river. (meaning you didn't have to raise the river if you think you could've induced all of them to overcall, which may not have been the case here) There's no clear way to play this, the way to induce the maximum amount of bets is really dependent on your read on the players behind you, and whether they are loose or not.

JTG51 · #7 08-23-2004, 05:07 AM

I haven't read SSH yet so I can't say for sure, but I doubt it recommends a call in this situation. With that board many of the hands that will call one bet will also call two cold (any two face cards and flush draws).

I suspect Ed recommended going for overcalls on the turn when your opponents are drawing nearly dead and are likely to call one bet but not two.

Hallett · #8 08-23-2004, 05:13 AM

If you missed the check raise, bet the turn, while everyone still has potential. You have the best hand, and dont want to give soemeone on a draw a free card. BET,

JTG51 · #9 08-23-2004, 05:18 AM

I was hoping to check-raise the flop, but no one bet till the button and I didn't want to make half the field cold call 2, although maybe I should have.

It seems like everyone has forgotten that it's sometimes OK to check and call with a draw.

daveymck · #10 08-23-2004, 05:25 AM

I think I would like to raise the flop here, two callers and possibly one behind you, but you draw isnt strong ie a J or 10 probably isnt helping you, but a raise might push out anyone with a backdraw flush.

Once you hit on the turn you have to raise, you have made your hand lets protect it, yes its the nuts at the moment but it is threatened by redraws lets get them making a mistake not holding the door open, as well as the flush a J or 10 may make you split the pot.

The money will go in on the turn while people are still playing and the chances are on the river you will lead the betting but may get more callers.

If there was no flush on or you had a redraw to make a strong flush then play the way you did but not when your hand is strong but vunerable.