3 Bet on the end?

Kevin · #1 08-20-2004, 05:05 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed)

1.) When CO coldcall/caps, do I put him on the nut flush? Therefore, is it an auto 3 bet on 5th when he raises?
2.) Did I misplay the flop? If so, what would be the proper play?

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, Hero calls, CO raises, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, UTG+2 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, CO calls, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero calls, CO caps, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (12.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks, CO bets, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (15.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets, CO raises, MP1 folds, Hero 3-bets, CO caps, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 23.16 BB
Main Pot: 23.16 BB, between Hero and CO.

RicktheRuler · #2 08-20-2004, 05:13 PM

Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers--I think you are just begging to get drawn out left and right if you are not already beat. But i understand there is a lot of money in the pot and you are already in for one bet, so why not toss another one in there right?
I dont know about the three bet on the flop...you may already have been beaten and I dont think anyone is going anywhere with the community as it is--simply too many possiblities. I would check call the turn even though i wouldnt wasnt to and play the river as you did. I think you got lucky on this one.

Brian · #3 08-20-2004, 05:16 PM

Hi Kevin,

Cap the Flop the first time when it's on the way back to you. Even if you are against a made Flush, the cap is for value with 3 opponents total.

I would also 3-bet the River. Your typical Party opponent is oblivious that the board pairing may have destoyed his Flush. QQ would've normally been raised pre-Flop, so the only hand I can see beating you here is 88. If he's got 88, then thems the breaks, but I'll 3-bet it every time.

-Brian
-Brian

Nottom · #4 08-20-2004, 05:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers--I think you are just begging to get drawn out left and right if you are not already beat. But i understand there is a lot of money in the pot and you are already in for one bet, so why not toss another one in there right?

[/ QUOTE ]

To even begin to consider folding preflop (especially after the raise) is extremely weak thinking. You aren't calling here expecting to win with a pair of 3s, you are calling with the hopes of flopping a 3 and winning with a set or a boat.

Brian · #5 08-20-2004, 05:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, i dont like to play a small pair like that against a group of callers--I think you are just begging to get drawn out left and right if you are not already beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh? Are you suggesting he fold pre-Flop? Get drawn out on? Our Hero will win the vast majority of the time that he makes a set.

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know about the three bet on the flop...you may already have been beaten and I dont think anyone is going anywhere with the community as it is--simply too many possiblities.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero didn't 3-bet the Flop. He raised and then called a 3-bet back to him.

[ QUOTE ]
I think you got lucky on this one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lucky how? Hero flopped a strong hand, and hit his 10-outer on the River.

-Brian

W. Deranged · #6 08-20-2004, 05:21 PM

I really can't find a fault with your play here. It seems the most likely holding for CO here is A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (maybe A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]). I think that the cold-call/cap play would be pretty strange here with QQ, and I don't really expect him to be raising pre-flop from that position behind a couple of callers with 88 (and, again, waiting to cap with set 8s would be somewhat strange). With that said, he could be trying to play top set kind of slow into the suited board, but that seems not only a very bad but also a very weird play. So, I think 90% the time the flop-betting points to him having the nut-flush.

The bet on the turn further suggests that he is playing the nut-flush, as it would be at least a questionable play if he had QQ considering that he is likely to be check-raised by a big heart and at that point he no longer has any worries about giving free cards (the only logical draw has hit).

With that said, I think the river three-bet is necessary. If you are lucky, as you indeed were, he four-bets with what is very likely the nut flush. If he turns over QQ, knock on the proverbial felt twice and tip your hat to CO, whose flop coldcall/cap was a bad enough play to disguise his hand quite successfully.

So I play it exactly as you did.

RicktheRuler · #7 08-20-2004, 05:23 PM

Right, I figured some people would disagree. And I am by no means an expert so your advice is appreciated. But my thinking is that against so many callers you are prone to being drawn out, which I think he may have been if it wasnt for the river. I would sometimes call the raise and then fold if overcards hit (situational) and there is a bet to me. Would you make this preflop play everytime? It seems to me this would be a losing proposition.

I appreciate your response.

Nottom · #8 08-20-2004, 05:24 PM

I would usually go ahead and cap the flop, even if someone has the flush I'm likely getting value on the bet with my set. I'm not sure what to think of the CO's cap, it could mean nut flush, it could mean top set. I think he has a suited A here more often than QQ though since I would expect this line more often from the nuts (He could even just have AA with a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] but I would expect a 3-bet from that hand more often than not).

On the river, I think you have value in the 3-bet, but I don't really like it when it gets capped.

RicktheRuler · #9 08-20-2004, 05:26 PM

I gotcha, I am still learning and trying to contribute as I do so. I would appreciate it if you could keep the abrasiveness to a minimum--its one of the reasons this forum seems to be going down the shitter.

Have a nice day.

Nottom · #10 08-20-2004, 05:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Would you make this preflop play everytime? It seems to me this would be a losing proposition.

[/ QUOTE ]

The only questionable part is the original call. With 2 limpers you are usually in pretty good shape, but there are times I would fold. Once I have a bet in, there is no way I fold for one more bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I would sometimes call the raise and then fold if overcards hit (situational) and there is a bet to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are going to be checkfolding the flop most of the time. The expectation is that when you flop a set (which will happen about one time in 8), you will make up for all the times you missed.