Slow Down on the Turn Matt?

IndieMatty · #1 08-19-2004, 10:24 PM

Table is pretty standard. No reads on (mp1) but whenever I see a 3 bet after a call in early position, I take that for weak..(probably a decent hand but still...)anyway he definitely has something.

But...for ahem..value...and my approximately 85 outs..?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, CO calls, Hero caps, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (20 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds, MP1 raises, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, BB caps, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (18 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, BB calls, MP1 raises, CO folds, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, MP1 caps, Hero calls, BB calls $2 (All-In).

River: (29.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players, 1 all-in)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 31.50 BB

Comments on all streets..yaddda yadda.

Eihli · #2 08-19-2004, 10:37 PM

Did you have to call the river?

IndieMatty · #3 08-19-2004, 10:41 PM

Party 2-4? 30-1. Yes.

MAxx · #4 08-19-2004, 11:10 PM

Pf- Good
FLOP- Excellent
Turn- Good
River- Unfortunately, You do have to call.

Here's how I size it up. You did pick up additional outs on the turn. You are going to see the river no matter what. Your lead is not going to take the hand down. Your bet is building the pot for your draw. IMO you have 2 possible routes, to try and see the river cheap or keep pumping. I do not think either one is terrible.

1)If you check turn you maybe able to see river for one or two bets, but It may get capped wether you lead or not. So its possible that you save 2-3 big bets in this situation, but it's no guarantee.

2) With 4 opponents, 3 going to river. The turn being capped is not all that bad for you. You will take down a monster pot if you hit (and as you know you have a ton of outs)

Its hard to say what my play would be in the thick of it, probably would really depend on my mood at the time.

If I had time to think clearly, with 4 oponents on the turn (one of them who was near all-in)... I would check & call and try and try to see the river as cheap as possible. I would see the river no matter what though. If there were 5 or more opponents still around on the turn, I would keep on jamming and pumping away for value.

I would not overly dwell on this hand, all in all- I say you played it fine... and you may very well have payed the same price no matter what your turn action was.

Victor · #5 08-19-2004, 11:31 PM

Preflop and flop are fine.

The turn is simple math. Should you continue to ram and jam or slow down? On the turn you have a gutshot and flush draw. That is 12 outs but you could be counterfieted if the board pairs but you have two overcards that might (seems unlikely here) hold up. So, let's just assume you have 12 outs on average here. 12 cards help and and 34 hurt so that is a little better than 3:1 odds. At this stage with only 2 other people putting money in your odds are only 2:1 so you want to see the river for as cheaply as possible. Of course, with another opponent you would probably want to continue betting and raising as it is probably slightly plus EV.

Here is the thing about this hand though. It really doesnt matter, because it appears that the BB and MP1 were going to cap it regardless of your piddily bet. So your only real turn decision was should I call and fold and obviously you should call.

The river is a pretty stupid call though. I know the pot is big but there is really no hands that you beat here. Looks like a frustration call.

RicktheRuler · #6 08-20-2004, 12:26 AM

This hand was a total tease through and through, I understand what you are thinking with the call on the river, but we both know that you are not going to take this down, I think you have to suck it up and fold on the river

IndieMatty · #7 08-20-2004, 09:36 AM

MP1: Had a set of 10's (nice hand by him)

and BB had nothing (a-9)

Thanks to all; especially to Maxx and Victor, a lot of food for thought there, basically I never do this, I'd mostly likely bet out, then check/call and fold, but reading these forums, I'll try to integrate it into my game.
As far as the river call, I still am comfortable calling with my frustration call, I do it so rarely, 1/1000 hands and have won some pretty sizeable pots (on Party 2-4) that I think if it's -EV its miniscule, and then of course you can say "I knew it" at the table and look smaaarrrrt.

Be good.